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	<title>Comments on: The Function of Prizes</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/the-function-of.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Tom Breton</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/the-function-of.html#comment-416193</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Breton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/the-function-of-prizes.html#comment-416193</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Tom, you need to learn some economics.&lt;/i&gt;

I admit that I do, and if I had I would probably have seen the nature
of your argument sooner and not made a muddled answer that both
accepted and denied the premiss that one discovery equals one
unit.

You are arguing, if I understand correctly now, along the lines that
the prize-giver is a consumer of discoveries or solutions and has
bought more units than he needs, and ought to reduce his bid at least
to the point where he receives only one solution.

I think that argument doesn&#039;t work.  The case of two simultaneous
discoveries is compatible with the prize amount being just right or
even too small, as well as too large.

My argument: I see no reason to assume that the expected distribution
of number of solutions is a point.  ISTM the number of solutions is
affected by both the prize amount and by random factors beyond the
control of both prize-giver and contestants.  I expect the random
factors to be significant, because the contestants do.  If they
didn&#039;t, they would co-ordinate so that only one contestant incurred
the cost of pursuing the prize.

Since there&#039;s a significant random factor, for no combination of set
prize amount and expected difficulty is the expected distribution of
number of solutions exactly one.  The distribution might both zero and
one, both one and two or more, or all three.

So reducing the prize amount to the point where there is no risk of
two solutions increases the risk of no solution.  If the random factor
is large enough, the risk of no solution can matter even at the same
time that there is a significant risk of two or more solutions.

Nature has in effect packaged solutions in units of unpredictable
size.  Both the prize-giver and the contestants would like to make the
unit size predictable, so that one solution equals one transaction.  The
prize-giver would avoid the situation at hand and the contestants
would avoid the risk being the second discoverer.  But they can&#039;t.  If
they could, they would have already done so, and the situation would
already be more like wages or purchases than prizes.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Tom, you need to learn some economics.</i></p>
<p>I admit that I do, and if I had I would probably have seen the nature<br />
of your argument sooner and not made a muddled answer that both<br />
accepted and denied the premiss that one discovery equals one<br />
unit.</p>
<p>You are arguing, if I understand correctly now, along the lines that<br />
the prize-giver is a consumer of discoveries or solutions and has<br />
bought more units than he needs, and ought to reduce his bid at least<br />
to the point where he receives only one solution.</p>
<p>I think that argument doesn&#8217;t work.  The case of two simultaneous<br />
discoveries is compatible with the prize amount being just right or<br />
even too small, as well as too large.</p>
<p>My argument: I see no reason to assume that the expected distribution<br />
of number of solutions is a point.  ISTM the number of solutions is<br />
affected by both the prize amount and by random factors beyond the<br />
control of both prize-giver and contestants.  I expect the random<br />
factors to be significant, because the contestants do.  If they<br />
didn&#8217;t, they would co-ordinate so that only one contestant incurred<br />
the cost of pursuing the prize.</p>
<p>Since there&#8217;s a significant random factor, for no combination of set<br />
prize amount and expected difficulty is the expected distribution of<br />
number of solutions exactly one.  The distribution might both zero and<br />
one, both one and two or more, or all three.</p>
<p>So reducing the prize amount to the point where there is no risk of<br />
two solutions increases the risk of no solution.  If the random factor<br />
is large enough, the risk of no solution can matter even at the same<br />
time that there is a significant risk of two or more solutions.</p>
<p>Nature has in effect packaged solutions in units of unpredictable<br />
size.  Both the prize-giver and the contestants would like to make the<br />
unit size predictable, so that one solution equals one transaction.  The<br />
prize-giver would avoid the situation at hand and the contestants<br />
would avoid the risk being the second discoverer.  But they can&#8217;t.  If<br />
they could, they would have already done so, and the situation would<br />
already be more like wages or purchases than prizes.</p>
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		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/the-function-of.html#comment-416192</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/the-function-of-prizes.html#comment-416192</guid>
		<description>Stuart, cryonics, a trust fund for oneself, and a published request to future generation to compensate you (via your trust fund) for your work for them.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart, cryonics, a trust fund for oneself, and a published request to future generation to compensate you (via your trust fund) for your work for them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/the-function-of.html#comment-416191</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 01:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/the-function-of-prizes.html#comment-416191</guid>
		<description>Tom, you need to learn some economics.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, you need to learn some economics.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
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		<title>By: Tom Breton</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/the-function-of.html#comment-416190</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Breton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 01:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/the-function-of-prizes.html#comment-416190</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;After all, the marginal contribution to progress of each simultaneous independent discovery is near zero - without that discovery progress would have been nearly the same, since the other sources were available.&lt;/i&gt;

Sorry, Robin, I think that&#039;s funny counting.

Let&#039;s say arguendo that there are no side benefits from discovery.
If discovery A&#039;s marginal contribution to progress is near zero, since there is no quarrel about the total value of discoveries A+B, that means that discovery B contributes nearly the entire value of A+B.  Similarly, if we fix B&#039;s value near zero, A contributes nearly A+B.  So ISTM you can&#039;t make the marginal value argument for both A and B simultaneously.

You might treat the fact of simultaneity as a proxy measure for how easy it was to make the discovery.  Others have pointed out problems with that.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>After all, the marginal contribution to progress of each simultaneous independent discovery is near zero &#8211; without that discovery progress would have been nearly the same, since the other sources were available.</i></p>
<p>Sorry, Robin, I think that&#8217;s funny counting.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say arguendo that there are no side benefits from discovery.<br />
If discovery A&#8217;s marginal contribution to progress is near zero, since there is no quarrel about the total value of discoveries A+B, that means that discovery B contributes nearly the entire value of A+B.  Similarly, if we fix B&#8217;s value near zero, A contributes nearly A+B.  So ISTM you can&#8217;t make the marginal value argument for both A and B simultaneously.</p>
<p>You might treat the fact of simultaneity as a proxy measure for how easy it was to make the discovery.  Others have pointed out problems with that.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Knight</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/the-function-of.html#comment-416189</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/the-function-of-prizes.html#comment-416189</guid>
		<description>Stuart Armstrong: the Fields Medal is a prize with little money attached. But that doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s cheap. It probably required lots of other resources to establish it as a serious open-ended award. I think this is relevant to Constant&#039;s comment; this was only the second time the Fields Medals were awarded and it probably wasn&#039;t well-established.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart Armstrong: the Fields Medal is a prize with little money attached. But that doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s cheap. It probably required lots of other resources to establish it as a serious open-ended award. I think this is relevant to Constant&#8217;s comment; this was only the second time the Fields Medals were awarded and it probably wasn&#8217;t well-established.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/the-function-of.html#comment-416188</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Armstrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:25:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/the-function-of-prizes.html#comment-416188</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;In case it wasn&#039;t obvious, I meant to hold constant the total amount of money awarded as prizes. So if in some cases we awarded less, in other cases we would award more.&lt;/i&gt;

Prizes bestowing fame and prestige could work with very little money. &quot;Genius&quot; prizes seem more suited for this than &quot;genuine achievement&quot; ones.

Ah, what would we not give for a time machine, so that future generations could reward researchers today...
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>In case it wasn&#8217;t obvious, I meant to hold constant the total amount of money awarded as prizes. So if in some cases we awarded less, in other cases we would award more.</i></p>
<p>Prizes bestowing fame and prestige could work with very little money. &#8220;Genius&#8221; prizes seem more suited for this than &#8220;genuine achievement&#8221; ones.</p>
<p>Ah, what would we not give for a time machine, so that future generations could reward researchers today&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/the-function-of.html#comment-416187</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:19:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/the-function-of-prizes.html#comment-416187</guid>
		<description>Scott, the part that might not be obvious to some is that those paying for research are included in the &quot;participants&quot; for whom research progress is only a side effect.

Anony, yes, co-discoverers must split credit, but that is still much more than being given near zero credit.

Math and Constant, if one wants to reward new interesting proofs of old results, one can simply use that language when defining &quot;discoveries.&quot;

Conchis, if the average prize awarded is held constant, I don&#039;t see why people would avoid the research topic.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, the part that might not be obvious to some is that those paying for research are included in the &#8220;participants&#8221; for whom research progress is only a side effect.</p>
<p>Anony, yes, co-discoverers must split credit, but that is still much more than being given near zero credit.</p>
<p>Math and Constant, if one wants to reward new interesting proofs of old results, one can simply use that language when defining &#8220;discoveries.&#8221;</p>
<p>Conchis, if the average prize awarded is held constant, I don&#8217;t see why people would avoid the research topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Aaronson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/the-function-of.html#comment-416186</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Aaronson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 08:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/the-function-of-prizes.html#comment-416186</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Relative to the main goals of most participants, research progress is only a side effect.&lt;/i&gt;

Robin, this strikes me as both true and obvious.  &quot;It is not from the benevolence of the physicist, the chemist, or the mathematician that we expect our journal articles, but from their regard to their own glory.&quot;  I thought economists &lt;i&gt;liked&lt;/i&gt; mechanisms that induce selfish agents to work toward socially desirable outcomes... :-)
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Relative to the main goals of most participants, research progress is only a side effect.</i></p>
<p>Robin, this strikes me as both true and obvious.  &#8220;It is not from the benevolence of the physicist, the chemist, or the mathematician that we expect our journal articles, but from their regard to their own glory.&#8221;  I thought economists <i>liked</i> mechanisms that induce selfish agents to work toward socially desirable outcomes&#8230; <img src='http://www.overcomingbias.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/the-function-of.html#comment-416185</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 22:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/the-function-of-prizes.html#comment-416185</guid>
		<description>In practice, simultaneous co-discoverers do not each receive as much credit as a single person would have: most people downgrade their estimate of the contribution when they hear several people did it independently and at the same time.  Furthermore, when prizes are involved, they may be split, or they may be awarded to the one person who is judged to have made the largest contribution, but I&#039;ve never heard of the total prize money being increased so that each co-discoverer gets a full share.  So I&#039;m not sure what Robin is complaining about.

Incidentally, the Erdos-Selberg story is quite a bit more subtle than the Washington Post story indicates.  See http://www.math.columbia.edu/~goldfeld/ErdosSelbergDispute.pdf for the details.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In practice, simultaneous co-discoverers do not each receive as much credit as a single person would have: most people downgrade their estimate of the contribution when they hear several people did it independently and at the same time.  Furthermore, when prizes are involved, they may be split, or they may be awarded to the one person who is judged to have made the largest contribution, but I&#8217;ve never heard of the total prize money being increased so that each co-discoverer gets a full share.  So I&#8217;m not sure what Robin is complaining about.</p>
<p>Incidentally, the Erdos-Selberg story is quite a bit more subtle than the Washington Post story indicates.  See <a href="http://www.math.columbia.edu/~goldfeld/ErdosSelbergDispute.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~goldfeld/ErdosSelbergDispute.pdf</a> for the details.</p>
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		<title>By: Math Geek</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/the-function-of.html#comment-416184</link>
		<dc:creator>Math Geek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:09:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/the-function-of-prizes.html#comment-416184</guid>
		<description>As Constant said, the significance of one&#039;s work in mathematics is judged not only by one&#039;s results but by the methods developed therein.  Techniques used in a proof often stimulate additional research, sometimes creating entirely new fields of mathematics.  Thus a subsequent proof may be more significant than the original one.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Constant said, the significance of one&#8217;s work in mathematics is judged not only by one&#8217;s results but by the methods developed therein.  Techniques used in a proof often stimulate additional research, sometimes creating entirely new fields of mathematics.  Thus a subsequent proof may be more significant than the original one.</p>
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