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	<title>Comments on: Dangers of political betting markets</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/dangers-of-poli.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Doug S.</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/dangers-of-poli.html#comment-416884</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 03:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/dangers-of-political-betting-markets.html#comment-416884</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;You&#039;re assuming a candidate wants to win. But what would happen if a successful candidate decides he wanted to cash in rather than win his election? For a candidate to lose his election is very easy - the odd racist or pro-pedophile comment &quot;accidentally&quot; slipped into a speech.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s a very good point. Consider the history of sports betting. Now imagine if it were okay for a professional sports player to bet against himself. It&#039;s easy to throw a game, or just not score enough points to beat the spread.

Second, markets are subject to their own irrationalities; just consider the various stock market bubbles that sometimes occur. For that matter, why was there EVER a market for Beanie Babies as high-priced collectibles? When the &quot;greater fool theory&quot; becomes the primary justification for buying something, and there really are plenty of greater fools around, then individually rational behavior can become collectively ridiculous.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>You&#8217;re assuming a candidate wants to win. But what would happen if a successful candidate decides he wanted to cash in rather than win his election? For a candidate to lose his election is very easy &#8211; the odd racist or pro-pedophile comment &#8220;accidentally&#8221; slipped into a speech.</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s a very good point. Consider the history of sports betting. Now imagine if it were okay for a professional sports player to bet against himself. It&#8217;s easy to throw a game, or just not score enough points to beat the spread.</p>
<p>Second, markets are subject to their own irrationalities; just consider the various stock market bubbles that sometimes occur. For that matter, why was there EVER a market for Beanie Babies as high-priced collectibles? When the &#8220;greater fool theory&#8221; becomes the primary justification for buying something, and there really are plenty of greater fools around, then individually rational behavior can become collectively ridiculous.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/dangers-of-poli.html#comment-416883</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Armstrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/dangers-of-political-betting-markets.html#comment-416883</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re assuming a candidate wants to win. But what would happen if a successful candidate decides he wanted to cash in rather than win his election? For a candidate to lose his election is very easy - the odd racist or pro-pedophile comment &quot;accidentally&quot; slipped into a speech.

If the betting markets allow bets on percentage of the vote, not only on result, then even losing candidates may be more tempted to destroy their campaign for cash.

This could hugely undermine the effectiveness of betting markets, even with disclosure and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/what-is-public-.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;insider trading&lt;/a&gt; sorted. A candidate bet against himself may be a hedge, a preparation for the self-imollation of his campaign, an attempt at publicity, or maybe a superstitious gesture. Each carries very different meanings, and interpreting them depends on knowing the inner mentality of the candidate, something that is practically impossible. This would dilute the reliability of the betting market, especially if the bet is large.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re assuming a candidate wants to win. But what would happen if a successful candidate decides he wanted to cash in rather than win his election? For a candidate to lose his election is very easy &#8211; the odd racist or pro-pedophile comment &#8220;accidentally&#8221; slipped into a speech.</p>
<p>If the betting markets allow bets on percentage of the vote, not only on result, then even losing candidates may be more tempted to destroy their campaign for cash.</p>
<p>This could hugely undermine the effectiveness of betting markets, even with disclosure and <a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/what-is-public-.html" rel="nofollow">insider trading</a> sorted. A candidate bet against himself may be a hedge, a preparation for the self-imollation of his campaign, an attempt at publicity, or maybe a superstitious gesture. Each carries very different meanings, and interpreting them depends on knowing the inner mentality of the candidate, something that is practically impossible. This would dilute the reliability of the betting market, especially if the bet is large.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter McCluskey</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/dangers-of-poli.html#comment-416882</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter McCluskey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 23:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/dangers-of-political-betting-markets.html#comment-416882</guid>
		<description>If the increased ability of candidates to finance their election is a problem (I can&#039;t predict whether it is), it seems likely that disclosure rules could deal with it. Voters would tend to be suspicious of candidates who make large bets against themselves, and traders would be reluctant to trade against such a hedger. To be enforceable the disclosure rules might need to have the exchanges identify and publicize the candidate&#039;s orders.
It&#039;s hard to see how donors&#039; behavior would be affected by hedging opportunities. Do donors ever invest a large enough fraction of their wealth in candidates that risk aversion would make a rational donor care about hedging? Or would any biases which cause people to act irrationally risk averse apply to campaign donors? As far as I can tell, the answers are no. The inefficiencies associated with collecting on illegal investments seem to prevent such large investments and to discourage biases such as endowment effects which cause irrational desires for hedging.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the increased ability of candidates to finance their election is a problem (I can&#8217;t predict whether it is), it seems likely that disclosure rules could deal with it. Voters would tend to be suspicious of candidates who make large bets against themselves, and traders would be reluctant to trade against such a hedger. To be enforceable the disclosure rules might need to have the exchanges identify and publicize the candidate&#8217;s orders.<br />
It&#8217;s hard to see how donors&#8217; behavior would be affected by hedging opportunities. Do donors ever invest a large enough fraction of their wealth in candidates that risk aversion would make a rational donor care about hedging? Or would any biases which cause people to act irrationally risk averse apply to campaign donors? As far as I can tell, the answers are no. The inefficiencies associated with collecting on illegal investments seem to prevent such large investments and to discourage biases such as endowment effects which cause irrational desires for hedging.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/dangers-of-poli.html#comment-416881</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 02:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/dangers-of-political-betting-markets.html#comment-416881</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t fully understand the binomial options pricing model, Random Visitor, but I gather that it is an expected value calculation at its heart.

I&#039;m not sure, though, if an expected value of the derivative would satisfy the politician. After all, he would want to conclude his campaign, win or lose, with the same amount of money (or utility). If he&#039;s not going to execute similar campaigns (or take similar risks, with similar odds) a large number of times throughout his life, expected values don&#039;t remove the risk at all. To drive this point home, suppose someone offered you a one-time bet on a coin toss for $1 million - would you take it? Probably not, even though your expected outcome is $0. If the person promised to offer the bet to you 1,000 times, you&#039;d be indifferent, but a one time bet is just too risky.

Also, I&#039;m not sure politicians could hedge very easily. A politician could place his bet mere minutes before the election so that he is certain of the odds (and, hence, how much to bet), but then he wouldn&#039;t have access to this money to spend on the campaign.

Alternatively, the candidate could bet several months before the close of the market, but the odds could change a lot. He can assign his own personal probability to winning, but it&#039;s unlikely to be as accurate as the market (that&#039;s the whole idea of betting markets, right? The many are smarter than the few?).

Ian
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t fully understand the binomial options pricing model, Random Visitor, but I gather that it is an expected value calculation at its heart.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure, though, if an expected value of the derivative would satisfy the politician. After all, he would want to conclude his campaign, win or lose, with the same amount of money (or utility). If he&#8217;s not going to execute similar campaigns (or take similar risks, with similar odds) a large number of times throughout his life, expected values don&#8217;t remove the risk at all. To drive this point home, suppose someone offered you a one-time bet on a coin toss for $1 million &#8211; would you take it? Probably not, even though your expected outcome is $0. If the person promised to offer the bet to you 1,000 times, you&#8217;d be indifferent, but a one time bet is just too risky.</p>
<p>Also, I&#8217;m not sure politicians could hedge very easily. A politician could place his bet mere minutes before the election so that he is certain of the odds (and, hence, how much to bet), but then he wouldn&#8217;t have access to this money to spend on the campaign.</p>
<p>Alternatively, the candidate could bet several months before the close of the market, but the odds could change a lot. He can assign his own personal probability to winning, but it&#8217;s unlikely to be as accurate as the market (that&#8217;s the whole idea of betting markets, right? The many are smarter than the few?).</p>
<p>Ian</p>
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		<title>By: Random Visitor</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/dangers-of-poli.html#comment-416880</link>
		<dc:creator>Random Visitor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 19:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/dangers-of-political-betting-markets.html#comment-416880</guid>
		<description>&quot;He can&#039;t count on the current odds, since they could change; he&#039;s got to put his money where his mouth is like everyone else in the betting market and use his own information to formulate a bet. The premise of this post of borrowing $10 and using half to bet and half on the campaign is simplistic - the amount to allocate to each should be proportional to the odds of winning, not the nominal amount at stake.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;Actually, current odds don&#039;t matter at all if the outcome is a binary one like be president or not. Using the underlying of a simple derivative (with a binary outcome, which we obviously have here) and a riskless asset you can always hedge away all risk trivially.&lt;br/&gt;A numerical example has already been given in the original post, so I refrain from constructing one here.See Cox-Ross-Rubinstein&#039;s binomial tree for option pricing, but the principle can be used in a wider context. (I won&#039;t go into the convoluted thing that is the riskless probability here).
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;He can&#8217;t count on the current odds, since they could change; he&#8217;s got to put his money where his mouth is like everyone else in the betting market and use his own information to formulate a bet. The premise of this post of borrowing $10 and using half to bet and half on the campaign is simplistic &#8211; the amount to allocate to each should be proportional to the odds of winning, not the nominal amount at stake.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually, current odds don&#8217;t matter at all if the outcome is a binary one like be president or not. Using the underlying of a simple derivative (with a binary outcome, which we obviously have here) and a riskless asset you can always hedge away all risk trivially.</p>
<p>A numerical example has already been given in the original post, so I refrain from constructing one here.</p>
<p>See Cox-Ross-Rubinstein&#8217;s binomial tree for option pricing, but the principle can be used in a wider context. (I won&#8217;t go into the convoluted thing that is the riskless probability here).</p>
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		<title>By: Byrne</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/dangers-of-poli.html#comment-416879</link>
		<dc:creator>Byrne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/dangers-of-political-betting-markets.html#comment-416879</guid>
		<description>This isn&#039;t a danger of prediction markets: it&#039;s an example of how prediction markets illustrate problems with existing institutions.

How is this any different from Lieberman running for the Senate in 2000? He was hedging his bets inefficiently; why not let him be open (and cheap) about it next time?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This isn&#8217;t a danger of prediction markets: it&#8217;s an example of how prediction markets illustrate problems with existing institutions.</p>
<p>How is this any different from Lieberman running for the Senate in 2000? He was hedging his bets inefficiently; why not let him be open (and cheap) about it next time?</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/dangers-of-poli.html#comment-416878</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/dangers-of-political-betting-markets.html#comment-416878</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s wrong with political candidates hedging? They have information about how likely they are to win, too. If the goal is to predict the winner, shouldn&#039;t we let the candidates themselves participate?

Presumably, a candidate who would bet against himself would do so according to his perceived odds of losing. Otherwise, how would he come out with even money, win or lose? He can&#039;t count on the current odds, since they could change; he&#039;s got to put his money where his mouth is like everyone else in the betting market and use his own information to formulate a bet. The premise of this post of borrowing $10 and using half to bet and half on the campaign is simplistic - the amount to allocate to each should be proportional to the odds of winning, not the nominal amount at stake.

And, if other betters think that the candidate&#039;s bet was inaccurately, there&#039;s a golden opportunity for them - betting the other way just got cheaper!

A few people mentioned that politicians might try to manipulate the markets, but Slate has an article that describes how someone may have attempted this during the Bush/Kerry 2004 election http://www.slate.com/id/2169647/). Just like betting markets are supposed to work, the market seized on the opportunity:

&quot;But it&#039;s hard to manipulate markets for long. In the 2004 case, Bush&#039;s re-election probability climbed back to 54 percent within minutes as profit-seeking traders spotted the free money. &quot;When I heard about it, I started checking the betting markets in the early hours a lot more closely,&quot; says Justin Wolfers.&quot;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s wrong with political candidates hedging? They have information about how likely they are to win, too. If the goal is to predict the winner, shouldn&#8217;t we let the candidates themselves participate?</p>
<p>Presumably, a candidate who would bet against himself would do so according to his perceived odds of losing. Otherwise, how would he come out with even money, win or lose? He can&#8217;t count on the current odds, since they could change; he&#8217;s got to put his money where his mouth is like everyone else in the betting market and use his own information to formulate a bet. The premise of this post of borrowing $10 and using half to bet and half on the campaign is simplistic &#8211; the amount to allocate to each should be proportional to the odds of winning, not the nominal amount at stake.</p>
<p>And, if other betters think that the candidate&#8217;s bet was inaccurately, there&#8217;s a golden opportunity for them &#8211; betting the other way just got cheaper!</p>
<p>A few people mentioned that politicians might try to manipulate the markets, but Slate has an article that describes how someone may have attempted this during the Bush/Kerry 2004 election <a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2169647/" rel="nofollow">http://www.slate.com/id/2169647/</a>). Just like betting markets are supposed to work, the market seized on the opportunity:</p>
<p>&#8220;But it&#8217;s hard to manipulate markets for long. In the 2004 case, Bush&#8217;s re-election probability climbed back to 54 percent within minutes as profit-seeking traders spotted the free money. &#8220;When I heard about it, I started checking the betting markets in the early hours a lot more closely,&#8221; says Justin Wolfers.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/dangers-of-poli.html#comment-416877</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/dangers-of-political-betting-markets.html#comment-416877</guid>
		<description>The problem with this is that it only reinforces the existing advantage that goes to the richest candidate. As the candidate, your minions could plunk down wedges of cash on your ticket (presumably it would be rational for them to do so, as long as they&#039;re backing you to win!), shortening the odds; now, media-driven &quot;perception&quot; of momentum is already damn important in &quot;the money race&quot; - what would it be like if the actual odds drove it?

Whatever we need, more power to the hereditary rich is not it.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with this is that it only reinforces the existing advantage that goes to the richest candidate. As the candidate, your minions could plunk down wedges of cash on your ticket (presumably it would be rational for them to do so, as long as they&#8217;re backing you to win!), shortening the odds; now, media-driven &#8220;perception&#8221; of momentum is already damn important in &#8220;the money race&#8221; &#8211; what would it be like if the actual odds drove it?</p>
<p>Whatever we need, more power to the hereditary rich is not it.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug S.</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/dangers-of-poli.html#comment-416876</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/dangers-of-political-betting-markets.html#comment-416876</guid>
		<description>Random thought: is promising to cut taxes the same as trying to buy votes?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Random thought: is promising to cut taxes the same as trying to buy votes?</p>
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		<title>By: Eliezer Yudkowsky</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/dangers-of-poli.html#comment-416875</link>
		<dc:creator>Eliezer Yudkowsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 02:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/dangers-of-political-betting-markets.html#comment-416875</guid>
		<description>Congratulations, Silas, you&#039;ve invented the &lt;i&gt;political derivative&lt;/i&gt;, soon to be involved in a mind-bendingly complicated financial meltdown in a country near you.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Congratulations, Silas, you&#8217;ve invented the <i>political derivative</i>, soon to be involved in a mind-bendingly complicated financial meltdown in a country near you.</p>
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