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	<title>Comments on: Are More Complicated Revelations Less Probable?</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/are-more-compli.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Vos Post</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/are-more-compli.html#comment-416675</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Vos Post</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 02:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/are-more-complicated-revelations-less-probable.html#comment-416675</guid>
		<description>The history of attempts to axiomatize Occam&#039;s Razor is far more complicated, and modern approaches far more subtle.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://necsi.org/events/iccs6/viewabstract.php?id=248&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Abstract: Complexity in the Paradox of Simplicity

Jonathan Post
Computer Futures, Inc.

Philip Fellman
University of Southern New Hampshire&lt;/a&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The history of attempts to axiomatize Occam&#8217;s Razor is far more complicated, and modern approaches far more subtle.</p>
<p><a href="http://necsi.org/events/iccs6/viewabstract.php?id=248" rel="nofollow">Abstract: Complexity in the Paradox of Simplicity</p>
<p>Jonathan Post<br />
Computer Futures, Inc.</p>
<p>Philip Fellman<br />
University of Southern New Hampshire</a></p>
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		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/are-more-compli.html#comment-416674</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 01:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/are-more-complicated-revelations-less-probable.html#comment-416674</guid>
		<description>Andrew, the more I reread your 8:57pm post, the more I doubt the essential honesty of it (that you don&#039;t intuitively pick (or to go a step back, formulate) less complicated mechanisms for observed phenomena, and you don&#039;t intuitively do so by factoring in the apparently limited energy available in our local system.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, the more I reread your 8:57pm post, the more I doubt the essential honesty of it (that you don&#8217;t intuitively pick (or to go a step back, formulate) less complicated mechanisms for observed phenomena, and you don&#8217;t intuitively do so by factoring in the apparently limited energy available in our local system.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/are-more-compli.html#comment-416673</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 00:57:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/are-more-complicated-revelations-less-probable.html#comment-416673</guid>
		<description>Hopefully A.,

I don&#039;t work in settings where I choose between theory A and theory B, or between model A and model B.  If I have 2 models I&#039;m considering, I&#039;d rather embed them continuously in a larger model that includes both the originals as special cases.  (That&#039;s called &quot;continuous model expansion&quot; as opposed to &quot;discrete model averaging.&quot;)  There&#039;s more discussion of this in a couple of the sections in chapter 6 of Bayesian Data Analysis.

Similarly, to Utilitarian:  I&#039;m not really ever estimating the probability of hypotheses.  Rather, I use hypotheses to estimate parameters and make predictions.  Then I use these predictions to evaluate the model.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hopefully A.,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t work in settings where I choose between theory A and theory B, or between model A and model B.  If I have 2 models I&#8217;m considering, I&#8217;d rather embed them continuously in a larger model that includes both the originals as special cases.  (That&#8217;s called &#8220;continuous model expansion&#8221; as opposed to &#8220;discrete model averaging.&#8221;)  There&#8217;s more discussion of this in a couple of the sections in chapter 6 of Bayesian Data Analysis.</p>
<p>Similarly, to Utilitarian:  I&#8217;m not really ever estimating the probability of hypotheses.  Rather, I use hypotheses to estimate parameters and make predictions.  Then I use these predictions to evaluate the model.</p>
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		<title>By: Utilitarian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/are-more-compli.html#comment-416672</link>
		<dc:creator>Utilitarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 21:23:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/are-more-complicated-revelations-less-probable.html#comment-416672</guid>
		<description>Another argument for Occam&#039;s razor is that we have to favor &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; hypotheses over others in our prior probability assignments. For instance, consider the example from before with the sequence 0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1. We can easily come up with an uncountably infinite number of possible hypotheses: e.g., that after 8 repetitions of &quot;0,1&quot;, the next number in the sequence is any particular element of the set of real numbers. (If we refuse to favor some hypotheses over others, we must assign measure 0 to all of them.) Occam&#039;s razor states a principle about which types of hypotheses we ought to favor.

In any event, Occam&#039;s razor may not be essential for the original premise of the post. Suppose we think an alien planet is just as likely to be named Alpha as to be named Beta, and that those aliens are just as likely to have blue skin as blue skin. Suppose these events are probabilistically independent of playing ping pong, riding unicycles, and liking the number 7. Define the event A&#039; as follows: &quot;Person A was abducted by aliens from the planet Alpha; they had green skin, they liked to play ping-pong, they rode around on unicycles, and their favorite number was 7.&quot; By the assumptions stated above, P(A&#039;) = P(B). But P(A&#039;) &lt;= P(A), because A&#039; is a subset of A. So P(B) &lt;= P(A). (Most likely, the inequality will be strict.)
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another argument for Occam&#8217;s razor is that we have to favor <i>some</i> hypotheses over others in our prior probability assignments. For instance, consider the example from before with the sequence 0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1. We can easily come up with an uncountably infinite number of possible hypotheses: e.g., that after 8 repetitions of &#8220;0,1&#8243;, the next number in the sequence is any particular element of the set of real numbers. (If we refuse to favor some hypotheses over others, we must assign measure 0 to all of them.) Occam&#8217;s razor states a principle about which types of hypotheses we ought to favor.</p>
<p>In any event, Occam&#8217;s razor may not be essential for the original premise of the post. Suppose we think an alien planet is just as likely to be named Alpha as to be named Beta, and that those aliens are just as likely to have blue skin as blue skin. Suppose these events are probabilistically independent of playing ping pong, riding unicycles, and liking the number 7. Define the event A&#8217; as follows: &#8220;Person A was abducted by aliens from the planet Alpha; they had green skin, they liked to play ping-pong, they rode around on unicycles, and their favorite number was 7.&#8221; By the assumptions stated above, P(A&#8217;) = P(B). But P(A&#8217;) <= P(A), because A&#8217; is a subset of A. So P(B) <= P(A). (Most likely, the inequality will be strict.)</p>
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		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/are-more-compli.html#comment-416671</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 21:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/are-more-complicated-revelations-less-probable.html#comment-416671</guid>
		<description>Andrew, your take on my 4:32pm post?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, your take on my 4:32pm post?</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/are-more-compli.html#comment-416670</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 20:57:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/are-more-complicated-revelations-less-probable.html#comment-416670</guid>
		<description>Anders,

I agree that it can be a useful statement to say, for example, that 97% of the variance in the data is explained by only two factors, or to say that certain factors are lost in the noise, or to compare different datasets with regard to how many factors are needed to explain most of the interesting patterns.  However, I don&#039;t see this in terms of a prior distribution favoring simpler models; I see it as a choice of how to summarize a complicated model (for example, summarizing by the largest and most important factors).  I agree completely with you that if a simple model does pretty well, this can be interesting, and a social scientist can look at how these factors change over time.  I just completely reject the statement in the original blog entry above that the simpler model is &quot;more probable.&quot;  I&#039;m much happier working with the possibility of a really complicated model (which would be structured; I&#039;m not talking about estimating 435 parameters with a flat prior) and then using &quot;Occam&#039;s razor,&quot; if you&#039;d like to call it that, to prepare useful summaries.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anders,</p>
<p>I agree that it can be a useful statement to say, for example, that 97% of the variance in the data is explained by only two factors, or to say that certain factors are lost in the noise, or to compare different datasets with regard to how many factors are needed to explain most of the interesting patterns.  However, I don&#8217;t see this in terms of a prior distribution favoring simpler models; I see it as a choice of how to summarize a complicated model (for example, summarizing by the largest and most important factors).  I agree completely with you that if a simple model does pretty well, this can be interesting, and a social scientist can look at how these factors change over time.  I just completely reject the statement in the original blog entry above that the simpler model is &#8220;more probable.&#8221;  I&#8217;m much happier working with the possibility of a really complicated model (which would be structured; I&#8217;m not talking about estimating 435 parameters with a flat prior) and then using &#8220;Occam&#8217;s razor,&#8221; if you&#8217;d like to call it that, to prepare useful summaries.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Tarleton</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/are-more-compli.html#comment-416669</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Tarleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 20:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/are-more-complicated-revelations-less-probable.html#comment-416669</guid>
		<description>HA: Something &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/06/25/solomonoff-induction/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;like&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-solomonoff-induction.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;that&lt;/a&gt;.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HA: Something <a href="http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/06/25/solomonoff-induction/" rel="nofollow">like</a> <a href="http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-solomonoff-induction.htm" rel="nofollow">that</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/are-more-compli.html#comment-416668</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 20:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/are-more-complicated-revelations-less-probable.html#comment-416668</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been thinking that the intuition behind Occam&#039;s Razor is probably rooted in entropy and the apparent overall state of the universe? Overall, the universe seems to be rather homogeneous. Thus, when considering two theories for a phenomenon, the more homogeneous/more entropic model, vs. the less homogeneous/less entropic model, all other things being equal the more homogeneous/more entropic model is statistically more probable. Has anyone else hitched some version of bayesian reasoning/entropy/and the relative homogeneity of the universe in this way as an explanation for the intuition behind Occam&#039;s Razor?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been thinking that the intuition behind Occam&#8217;s Razor is probably rooted in entropy and the apparent overall state of the universe? Overall, the universe seems to be rather homogeneous. Thus, when considering two theories for a phenomenon, the more homogeneous/more entropic model, vs. the less homogeneous/less entropic model, all other things being equal the more homogeneous/more entropic model is statistically more probable. Has anyone else hitched some version of bayesian reasoning/entropy/and the relative homogeneity of the universe in this way as an explanation for the intuition behind Occam&#8217;s Razor?</p>
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		<title>By: Anders Sandberg</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/are-more-compli.html#comment-416667</link>
		<dc:creator>Anders Sandberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:57:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/are-more-complicated-revelations-less-probable.html#comment-416667</guid>
		<description>Suppose you fit a model to your hypotheses. Most likely the fit of H1 will be worse than to H2, which will be worse than H3, and so on. If you had to choose between these hypotheses, which one would you choose? If only the fit matters, you should choose the one with 435 factors since it gives the best fit. But it is pretty obviously a much less plausible social science model than saying that there are a few big factors (and then many small hidden in the &quot;noise&quot;). That the real state of affairs is much more complex than the hypotheses does not mean that the simple model doesn&#039;t tell us something interesting.

(BTW, I actually did this kind of analysis of the Swedish parliament,
http://www.eudoxa.se/politics/omrostningar.html
and could show that it was mostly 1-dimensional like British politics, unlike the 4D Norwegian politics
http://www.essex.ac.uk/ecpr/events/jointsessions/paperarchive/mannheim/w5/narud.pdf
and the 2D US politics
http://www.citebase.org/abstract?identifier=oai:arXiv.org:nlin/0505043
)

Kolmogorov complexity applies in social science too: an explanation with many ad hoc details is generally valued less than an explanation based on a few simple, general principles. One reason to value the simpler explanation is that it is less prone to overfitting, and can be expected to work well in the future too (unless it is too vacuous to actually tell us anything, of course).

A lot of people get seduced by complex &quot;realistic&quot; models in climate or neuroscience. The problem is that you seldom learn anything from them. They do things, but we cannot follow what happens or why, and the only way of predicting what will happen when parameters are changed is to run the model anew. That might be close to how reality works, but it does not help us understand what is going on or make robust predictions. Often reducing the model to equivalent but simpler models gives valuable insights.

In the case of the political votes, I think the simple models would do a pretty good job of predicting how representatives vote. That would be useful for a political analyst, and for the sociologist it would be interesting to examine what the components are (and how they change over time). That sounds like a good start for research to me. Instead starting with the most complex assumption (everybody votes for their own special reasons) doesn&#039;t get us very far.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suppose you fit a model to your hypotheses. Most likely the fit of H1 will be worse than to H2, which will be worse than H3, and so on. If you had to choose between these hypotheses, which one would you choose? If only the fit matters, you should choose the one with 435 factors since it gives the best fit. But it is pretty obviously a much less plausible social science model than saying that there are a few big factors (and then many small hidden in the &#8220;noise&#8221;). That the real state of affairs is much more complex than the hypotheses does not mean that the simple model doesn&#8217;t tell us something interesting.</p>
<p>(BTW, I actually did this kind of analysis of the Swedish parliament,<br />
<a href="http://www.eudoxa.se/politics/omrostningar.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.eudoxa.se/politics/omrostningar.html</a><br />
and could show that it was mostly 1-dimensional like British politics, unlike the 4D Norwegian politics<br />
<a href="http://www.essex.ac.uk/ecpr/events/jointsessions/paperarchive/mannheim/w5/narud.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.essex.ac.uk/ecpr/events/jointsessions/paperarchive/mannheim/w5/narud.pdf</a><br />
and the 2D US politics<br />
<a href="http://www.citebase.org/abstract?identifier=oai:arXiv.org:nlin/0505043" rel="nofollow">http://www.citebase.org/abstract?identifier=oai:arXiv.org:nlin/0505043</a><br />
)</p>
<p>Kolmogorov complexity applies in social science too: an explanation with many ad hoc details is generally valued less than an explanation based on a few simple, general principles. One reason to value the simpler explanation is that it is less prone to overfitting, and can be expected to work well in the future too (unless it is too vacuous to actually tell us anything, of course).</p>
<p>A lot of people get seduced by complex &#8220;realistic&#8221; models in climate or neuroscience. The problem is that you seldom learn anything from them. They do things, but we cannot follow what happens or why, and the only way of predicting what will happen when parameters are changed is to run the model anew. That might be close to how reality works, but it does not help us understand what is going on or make robust predictions. Often reducing the model to equivalent but simpler models gives valuable insights.</p>
<p>In the case of the political votes, I think the simple models would do a pretty good job of predicting how representatives vote. That would be useful for a political analyst, and for the sociologist it would be interesting to examine what the components are (and how they change over time). That sounds like a good start for research to me. Instead starting with the most complex assumption (everybody votes for their own special reasons) doesn&#8217;t get us very far.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/are-more-compli.html#comment-416666</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/08/are-more-complicated-revelations-less-probable.html#comment-416666</guid>
		<description>Stuart,

If it&#039;s an esthetic principle, that&#039;s ok.  We just have different esthetic senses.  You like Japanese rock gardens, I like overstuffed sofas.  (Refer to Radford&#039;s quote in my first comment above.)  Based on the popularity of Occam&#039;s Razor, I suspect that Radford and I have a minority preference.  Nonetheless I think my preferences have worked well in the many applied problems that I&#039;ve worked on.

I would argue that the appropriate esthetic principles can depend on what problems you&#039;re working on.  Many aspects of physics and genetics are inherently discrete (for example, just one or two genes determining something), whereas social and environmental phenomena are typically explained by many factors.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart,</p>
<p>If it&#8217;s an esthetic principle, that&#8217;s ok.  We just have different esthetic senses.  You like Japanese rock gardens, I like overstuffed sofas.  (Refer to Radford&#8217;s quote in my first comment above.)  Based on the popularity of Occam&#8217;s Razor, I suspect that Radford and I have a minority preference.  Nonetheless I think my preferences have worked well in the many applied problems that I&#8217;ve worked on.</p>
<p>I would argue that the appropriate esthetic principles can depend on what problems you&#8217;re working on.  Many aspects of physics and genetics are inherently discrete (for example, just one or two genes determining something), whereas social and environmental phenomena are typically explained by many factors.</p>
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