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	<title>Comments on: Schools That Don&#8217;t Want To Be Graded</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/schools-that-do.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/schools-that-do.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/schools-that-do.html#comment-417577</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:54:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/schools-that-dont-want-to-be-graded.html#comment-417577</guid>
		<description>I would like to know how influential the rankings are for kids picking colleges, scholars picking graduate schools, and faculty looking for work. I bet they are more important for alums. At any rate, I don&#039;t see a point in whining over rankings. They are zero-sum. Got a bad ranking? Just admit it up front and say &quot;but let me show you what&#039;s great about this school.&quot;

I spent my college years at UC Irvine, just as it was beginning to develop into the juggernaut it most unmistakenly is now. In the words of George W. Bush &quot;Go Anteaters.... Fight... Anteater&quot;. It most certainly wasn&#039;t rankings that attracted me in 1988. I had acceptances from a number of schools that would have looked great on the old resume. But UCI went the extra mile to get me to go there. I swear, if we&#039;d had cell phones and pagers in 1988, it would have been worse than having Pete Carroll and Les Miles fight over a letter of intent.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to know how influential the rankings are for kids picking colleges, scholars picking graduate schools, and faculty looking for work. I bet they are more important for alums. At any rate, I don&#8217;t see a point in whining over rankings. They are zero-sum. Got a bad ranking? Just admit it up front and say &#8220;but let me show you what&#8217;s great about this school.&#8221;</p>
<p>I spent my college years at UC Irvine, just as it was beginning to develop into the juggernaut it most unmistakenly is now. In the words of George W. Bush &#8220;Go Anteaters&#8230;. Fight&#8230; Anteater&#8221;. It most certainly wasn&#8217;t rankings that attracted me in 1988. I had acceptances from a number of schools that would have looked great on the old resume. But UCI went the extra mile to get me to go there. I swear, if we&#8217;d had cell phones and pagers in 1988, it would have been worse than having Pete Carroll and Les Miles fight over a letter of intent.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/schools-that-do.html#comment-417576</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:28:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/schools-that-dont-want-to-be-graded.html#comment-417576</guid>
		<description>The US News ranking system is flawed.  This might be a good way to protest it, if those colleges can band together and list what they want changed (or want in a new ranking system).

The best result would be to provide a number of separate metrics or rankings within groups of schools (public/private, small/large, etc.) instead of a single scale.  Then as a college student, I could look at the factors most interesting to me.

I graduated from a school that was small enough to get individual teacher attention yet with affordable tuition because student aid wouldn&#039;t cover the gap between what my parents could afford and what the Univ of California cost.  I&#039;ve later spent some time on the UC campus and am happy with the choice I made for undergrad, even though it might not have been a good idea based on the US News ranking alone.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The US News ranking system is flawed.  This might be a good way to protest it, if those colleges can band together and list what they want changed (or want in a new ranking system).</p>
<p>The best result would be to provide a number of separate metrics or rankings within groups of schools (public/private, small/large, etc.) instead of a single scale.  Then as a college student, I could look at the factors most interesting to me.</p>
<p>I graduated from a school that was small enough to get individual teacher attention yet with affordable tuition because student aid wouldn&#8217;t cover the gap between what my parents could afford and what the Univ of California cost.  I&#8217;ve later spent some time on the UC campus and am happy with the choice I made for undergrad, even though it might not have been a good idea based on the US News ranking alone.</p>
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		<title>By: billswift</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/schools-that-do.html#comment-417575</link>
		<dc:creator>billswift</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:04:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/schools-that-dont-want-to-be-graded.html#comment-417575</guid>
		<description>Nick, that&#039;s why there are many ranking systems in use which use different criteria.  Look for the ranking which best fits what you want in a college.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick, that&#8217;s why there are many ranking systems in use which use different criteria.  Look for the ranking which best fits what you want in a college.</p>
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		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/schools-that-do.html#comment-417574</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:47:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/schools-that-dont-want-to-be-graded.html#comment-417574</guid>
		<description>A personal belief of mine and an area of entrepreneurial interest is on the theory that a lot more things should be graded than currently are. How does one find the best private CFA licensing exam tutor in Manhattan? The best personal trainer in South Beach? The best seduction coach in Los Angeles? National magazines rank educational programs, and regional magazines often rank and rate best doctors and lawyers, but beyond that, it&#039;s still a wilderness. Perhaps social networking software will fill the void, but I think there&#039;s still huge opportunities in this area.

Anyone interested in collaborating with me can email me at lawfinals@yahoo.com
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A personal belief of mine and an area of entrepreneurial interest is on the theory that a lot more things should be graded than currently are. How does one find the best private CFA licensing exam tutor in Manhattan? The best personal trainer in South Beach? The best seduction coach in Los Angeles? National magazines rank educational programs, and regional magazines often rank and rate best doctors and lawyers, but beyond that, it&#8217;s still a wilderness. Perhaps social networking software will fill the void, but I think there&#8217;s still huge opportunities in this area.</p>
<p>Anyone interested in collaborating with me can email me at <a href="mailto:lawfinals@yahoo.com">lawfinals@yahoo.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Nick Tarleton</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/schools-that-do.html#comment-417573</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Tarleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/schools-that-dont-want-to-be-graded.html#comment-417573</guid>
		<description>It sounds like everyone is still assuming that a one-dimensional ranking of colleges is valid and productive. It&#039;s not. Different students do best in completely different environments, and treating a one-dimensional ranking as extremely important (rather than one, relatively small, input into the decision) causes applicants to become obsessed with getting into the supposedly objective #1 rather than taking the extra effort to find out where they would do best. (You do know how insanely irrational - especially susceptible to the bandwagon effect - teenagers are, right? I saw this myself while applying to college the past year.)

A student selecting a college and a company selecting employees are very different situations. A poor selection has a much larger impact on a student (have to try - and likely fail - to transfer after an unpleasant year) than on a company (replace the employee, incur a small cost). The student only decides once while the company hires many people, which both amplifies the importance of the decision to the student and means the student can invest much more effort in making the decision than the company can in each employee.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds like everyone is still assuming that a one-dimensional ranking of colleges is valid and productive. It&#8217;s not. Different students do best in completely different environments, and treating a one-dimensional ranking as extremely important (rather than one, relatively small, input into the decision) causes applicants to become obsessed with getting into the supposedly objective #1 rather than taking the extra effort to find out where they would do best. (You do know how insanely irrational &#8211; especially susceptible to the bandwagon effect &#8211; teenagers are, right? I saw this myself while applying to college the past year.)</p>
<p>A student selecting a college and a company selecting employees are very different situations. A poor selection has a much larger impact on a student (have to try &#8211; and likely fail &#8211; to transfer after an unpleasant year) than on a company (replace the employee, incur a small cost). The student only decides once while the company hires many people, which both amplifies the importance of the decision to the student and means the student can invest much more effort in making the decision than the company can in each employee.</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/schools-that-do.html#comment-417572</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/schools-that-dont-want-to-be-graded.html#comment-417572</guid>
		<description>When I first saw the title about the post I thought it would be about standardized testing, No Child Left Behind and so on. Of course, that attitude to such tests is not surprising given the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.lewrockwell.com/taylor/taylor129.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;scores&lt;/a&gt; of those that go into Education.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I first saw the title about the post I thought it would be about standardized testing, No Child Left Behind and so on. Of course, that attitude to such tests is not surprising given the <a href="http://www.lewrockwell.com/taylor/taylor129.html" rel="nofollow">scores</a> of those that go into Education.</p>
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		<title>By: Chi</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/schools-that-do.html#comment-417571</link>
		<dc:creator>Chi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:01:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/schools-that-dont-want-to-be-graded.html#comment-417571</guid>
		<description>At the very least, GPA can be used legitimately by graduate schools and large employers (like Microsoft, Google, who may have occasion to discriminate) to sift through students with the same major.  Surely there are degrees of appropriateness for comparing students via a single number: class, department, major, university, peer Universities.

Hiding scores because of graduation rate *is* a significant thing, thank you very much.  There are real students who break down or give up in college, and it is a useful bit of information to know how many of them there are.  Otoh, I don&#039;t see the meaning in flunking a kid that was admitted rightfully, and who hasn&#039;t slacked off.  The US has been more accomodating than Cambridge-style &quot;sent down the river&quot;.  Setting aside the money reason, I have to think this is the better way.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the very least, GPA can be used legitimately by graduate schools and large employers (like Microsoft, Google, who may have occasion to discriminate) to sift through students with the same major.  Surely there are degrees of appropriateness for comparing students via a single number: class, department, major, university, peer Universities.</p>
<p>Hiding scores because of graduation rate *is* a significant thing, thank you very much.  There are real students who break down or give up in college, and it is a useful bit of information to know how many of them there are.  Otoh, I don&#8217;t see the meaning in flunking a kid that was admitted rightfully, and who hasn&#8217;t slacked off.  The US has been more accomodating than Cambridge-style &#8220;sent down the river&#8221;.  Setting aside the money reason, I have to think this is the better way.</p>
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		<title>By: Dagon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/schools-that-do.html#comment-417570</link>
		<dc:creator>Dagon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/schools-that-dont-want-to-be-graded.html#comment-417570</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a key difference between the college rankings and student grades.  Students have a very wide choice of colleges, with various grading systems to choose from.  Colleges don&#039;t currently have this choice.

Students also only get to go to one college (in most cases).  Colleges could appear in multiple ranking lists simultaneously.

One possibility is, rather than just trying to opt out of the ranking in useless news and world distort, for colleges to encourage other publications to publish rankings with criteria they prefer.

There&#039;s also a difference in importance - grades don&#039;t matter much after a few years in most careers.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a key difference between the college rankings and student grades.  Students have a very wide choice of colleges, with various grading systems to choose from.  Colleges don&#8217;t currently have this choice.</p>
<p>Students also only get to go to one college (in most cases).  Colleges could appear in multiple ranking lists simultaneously.</p>
<p>One possibility is, rather than just trying to opt out of the ranking in useless news and world distort, for colleges to encourage other publications to publish rankings with criteria they prefer.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s also a difference in importance &#8211; grades don&#8217;t matter much after a few years in most careers.</p>
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		<title>By: Ali Hasanain</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/schools-that-do.html#comment-417569</link>
		<dc:creator>Ali Hasanain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/schools-that-dont-want-to-be-graded.html#comment-417569</guid>
		<description>I think the schools would argue that US News has an economic interest in revising the rankings significantly each year, and thus is likely to do so in capricious ways. GPAs on the other hand, are not subject to such yearly fluctuation and can therefore be better trusted.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the schools would argue that US News has an economic interest in revising the rankings significantly each year, and thus is likely to do so in capricious ways. GPAs on the other hand, are not subject to such yearly fluctuation and can therefore be better trusted.</p>
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		<title>By: Zubon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/schools-that-do.html#comment-417568</link>
		<dc:creator>Zubon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/schools-that-dont-want-to-be-graded.html#comment-417568</guid>
		<description>My graduate school is one of the top-ranked in the country for a program that it does not have.  Somehow, the non-existence of the program was not factored into the ratings.

The Thomas Cooley Law School in Michigan was unhappy with the &lt;em&gt;US News&lt;/em&gt; ranking of law schools, so it developed its own.  Under that system, the Thomas Cooley Law School is a top-tier law school.  This alternative rating system does not seem to have caught on nationally.

Any ratings system will reward certain activities.  To the extent that these activities are something other than what the universities should be doing, it will distort behavior and provide an inaccurate measure.  This site has had discussions of how grading students distorts the learning process.

We know that the &lt;em&gt;US News&lt;/em&gt; rankings are biased in certain ways.  What implies that a measure with a known bias is worse than no measure at all?  I can see a problem if the bias is known to administrators but not students, but that seems like the sort of problem that can be overcome.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My graduate school is one of the top-ranked in the country for a program that it does not have.  Somehow, the non-existence of the program was not factored into the ratings.</p>
<p>The Thomas Cooley Law School in Michigan was unhappy with the <em>US News</em> ranking of law schools, so it developed its own.  Under that system, the Thomas Cooley Law School is a top-tier law school.  This alternative rating system does not seem to have caught on nationally.</p>
<p>Any ratings system will reward certain activities.  To the extent that these activities are something other than what the universities should be doing, it will distort behavior and provide an inaccurate measure.  This site has had discussions of how grading students distorts the learning process.</p>
<p>We know that the <em>US News</em> rankings are biased in certain ways.  What implies that a measure with a known bias is worse than no measure at all?  I can see a problem if the bias is known to administrators but not students, but that seems like the sort of problem that can be overcome.</p>
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