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	<title>Comments on: Colorful Characters</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/color-character.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson&#8217;s decision markets &#8212;thru Tyler Cowen&#8217;s eyes &#124; Midas Oracle .ORG</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/color-character.html#comment-431351</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson&#8217;s decision markets &#8212;thru Tyler Cowen&#8217;s eyes &#124; Midas Oracle .ORG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 08:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/colorful-characters.html#comment-431351</guid>
		<description>[...] Robin Hanson&#8217;s response to Tyler Cowen. + Tyler Cowen&#8217;s response to Robin Hanson + Tyler Cowen on Robin Hanson + Robin [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Robin Hanson&#8217;s response to Tyler Cowen. + Tyler Cowen&#8217;s response to Robin Hanson + Tyler Cowen on Robin Hanson + Robin [...]</p>
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		<title>By: EconLog</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/color-character.html#comment-417478</link>
		<dc:creator>EconLog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 01:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/colorful-characters.html#comment-417478</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Pick a Topic: What Should a Cowen-Hanson Debate Be About?&lt;/strong&gt;

Who wouldn&#039;t want to see Tyler Cowen publicly debate Robin Hanson? Well, aside from the masses? I think they&#039;d both...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Pick a Topic: What Should a Cowen-Hanson Debate Be About?</strong></p>
<p>Who wouldn&#8217;t want to see Tyler Cowen publicly debate Robin Hanson? Well, aside from the masses? I think they&#8217;d both&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Unit</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/color-character.html#comment-417477</link>
		<dc:creator>Unit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 04:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/colorful-characters.html#comment-417477</guid>
		<description>&quot;Robin believes that we are headed toward a &quot;robot economy&quot; with rates of exponential growth exceeding 300 percent a year.  Yet the wages of labor may fall below subsistence, leading to widespread poverty for those who do not own capital.&quot;

Hasn&#039;t this claim been made before? Didn&#039;t Linus Pauling sign a petition to LBJ predicting that computers would create massive unemployment? If so, doesn&#039;t the current &quot;internet economy&quot; make the future &quot;robot economy&quot; much less scary?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Robin believes that we are headed toward a &#8220;robot economy&#8221; with rates of exponential growth exceeding 300 percent a year.  Yet the wages of labor may fall below subsistence, leading to widespread poverty for those who do not own capital.&#8221;</p>
<p>Hasn&#8217;t this claim been made before? Didn&#8217;t Linus Pauling sign a petition to LBJ predicting that computers would create massive unemployment? If so, doesn&#8217;t the current &#8220;internet economy&#8221; make the future &#8220;robot economy&#8221; much less scary?</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Tarleton</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/color-character.html#comment-417476</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Tarleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/colorful-characters.html#comment-417476</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If only feels like we love the arts for the arts&#039; sake; in fact the charade is part of the point.  If our love for the arts is to attract others - that is to fool them - we have to feel our passions as sincere.&lt;/i&gt;

(I&#039;m assuming this is a fair statement of Robin&#039;s view.)

Individuals are adaptation-executers, not fitness-maximizers. Thus, even though propensities to things like art may have evolved because they signaled fitness, claiming that signaling fitness is the &#039;real motivation&#039; for art isn&#039;t exactly accurate. The individual &lt;i&gt;does&lt;/i&gt; love art for art&#039;s sake; the individual does not have &#039;signal to increase reproductive fitness&#039; represented anywhere in their brain. Love of art can be sincere without any self-deception being involved, as the signaling motivation can&#039;t be discovered by any amount of introspection, only by doing science.

Do you place less value on art now that you&#039;re aware of the evolutionary reason for appreciating it?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If only feels like we love the arts for the arts&#8217; sake; in fact the charade is part of the point.  If our love for the arts is to attract others &#8211; that is to fool them &#8211; we have to feel our passions as sincere.</i></p>
<p>(I&#8217;m assuming this is a fair statement of Robin&#8217;s view.)</p>
<p>Individuals are adaptation-executers, not fitness-maximizers. Thus, even though propensities to things like art may have evolved because they signaled fitness, claiming that signaling fitness is the &#8216;real motivation&#8217; for art isn&#8217;t exactly accurate. The individual <i>does</i> love art for art&#8217;s sake; the individual does not have &#8217;signal to increase reproductive fitness&#8217; represented anywhere in their brain. Love of art can be sincere without any self-deception being involved, as the signaling motivation can&#8217;t be discovered by any amount of introspection, only by doing science.</p>
<p>Do you place less value on art now that you&#8217;re aware of the evolutionary reason for appreciating it?</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/color-character.html#comment-417475</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:25:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/colorful-characters.html#comment-417475</guid>
		<description>Tyler, my &lt;a href=&quot;http://hanson.gmu.edu/wildideas.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;wild ideas page&lt;/a&gt; says clearly at the top that my claim is that five of the fourteen are true, not that all are true.  And if you only had the two word header &quot;Medicine Useless&quot; to go on, the misunderstanding would be understandable.  But that two word header &lt;a href=&quot;http://hanson.gmu.edu/wildideas.html#med&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;links directly&lt;/a&gt; to a short sentence where I explain my claim to be about a 50% cut in medical spending.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tyler, my <a href="http://hanson.gmu.edu/wildideas.html" rel="nofollow">wild ideas page</a> says clearly at the top that my claim is that five of the fourteen are true, not that all are true.  And if you only had the two word header &#8220;Medicine Useless&#8221; to go on, the misunderstanding would be understandable.  But that two word header <a href="http://hanson.gmu.edu/wildideas.html#med" rel="nofollow">links directly</a> to a short sentence where I explain my claim to be about a 50% cut in medical spending.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler Cowen</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/color-character.html#comment-417474</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler Cowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:15:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/colorful-characters.html#comment-417474</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s also worth checking my claims against Robin&#039;s own web site: http://hanson.gmu.edu/wildideas.html#med.  There he definitely says he favors futarchy, says that in 2100 a head *will* be thawed out, and writes the phrase &quot;Medicine Useless.&quot;  Now it&#039;s fair enough for him to say he is exaggerating for effect, but I am just (as Bryan Caplan suggests) taking him literally and in this sense it is hard for me to see why he is complaining that I exaggerate his words.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s also worth checking my claims against Robin&#8217;s own web site: <a href="http://hanson.gmu.edu/wildideas.html#med" rel="nofollow">http://hanson.gmu.edu/wildideas.html#med</a>.  There he definitely says he favors futarchy, says that in 2100 a head *will* be thawed out, and writes the phrase &#8220;Medicine Useless.&#8221;  Now it&#8217;s fair enough for him to say he is exaggerating for effect, but I am just (as Bryan Caplan suggests) taking him literally and in this sense it is hard for me to see why he is complaining that I exaggerate his words.</p>
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		<title>By: Patri Friedman</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/color-character.html#comment-417473</link>
		<dc:creator>Patri Friedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/colorful-characters.html#comment-417473</guid>
		<description>Tyler&#039;s responses still do not address the question of where, if anywhere, he disagrees with you.  It is frustrating to be painted as eccentric without any meaty arguments to strike back at (or acknowledge).

If only there were betting markets, you could publicize your portfolio of predictions and ask Tyler which, if any, he has taken the other side on.  That would refute, or at least reflect, the incredulous stare.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tyler&#8217;s responses still do not address the question of where, if anywhere, he disagrees with you.  It is frustrating to be painted as eccentric without any meaty arguments to strike back at (or acknowledge).</p>
<p>If only there were betting markets, you could publicize your portfolio of predictions and ask Tyler which, if any, he has taken the other side on.  That would refute, or at least reflect, the incredulous stare.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler Cowen</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/color-character.html#comment-417472</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler Cowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/colorful-characters.html#comment-417472</guid>
		<description>You do link to it, but it is worth noting that the whole discussion is framed by the following very strong and very prominent statement:

&quot;My other friend and colleague Bryan Caplan put it best:  &quot;When the typical economist tells me about his latest research, my standard reaction is `Eh, maybe.&#039; Then I forget about it.  When Robin Hanson tells me about his latest research, my standard reaction is `No way! Impossible!&#039; Then I think about it for years.&quot;&quot;

In other words, I am telling the reader that even if some of this sounds crazy, there is a lot to it.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You do link to it, but it is worth noting that the whole discussion is framed by the following very strong and very prominent statement:</p>
<p>&#8220;My other friend and colleague Bryan Caplan put it best:  &#8220;When the typical economist tells me about his latest research, my standard reaction is `Eh, maybe.&#8217; Then I forget about it.  When Robin Hanson tells me about his latest research, my standard reaction is `No way! Impossible!&#8217; Then I think about it for years.&#8221;"</p>
<p>In other words, I am telling the reader that even if some of this sounds crazy, there is a lot to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/color-character.html#comment-417471</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/colorful-characters.html#comment-417471</guid>
		<description>Tyler, I&#039;m not unhappy with your portrait overall, really - I just wanted to make some corrections.  &lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;You are right that freezing might not be feasible in specific cases; I misunderstood you there.
&lt;li&gt;Yes I would personally prefer to maximize total world wealth, broadly understood, but the phrase &quot;national income&quot; usually connotes a narrower accounting measure, and my &lt;a href=&quot;http://hanson.gmu.edu/futarchy.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;proposal&lt;/a&gt; is to have a legislature manage the details of defining a national, not world, welfare.
&lt;li&gt;On signaling, I was complaining about the phrase &quot;to show we are fit mates,&quot; not the phrase &quot;to furthering our genetic fitness.&quot;
&lt;li&gt;I agree that I am overall relatively skeptical about medicine, and that I typically refer to a wide margin in medicine, corresponding to the roughly 30% margin examined in the RAND health insurance experiment.  And I have expressed doubts about the other 70%.  But the phrase &quot;the money we spend ... is a waste&quot; suggests a stronger claim about a 100% margin.  My reference to clean air and exercise was to distinguish &quot;health care&quot; from &quot;medicine.&quot;&lt;/ul&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tyler, I&#8217;m not unhappy with your portrait overall, really &#8211; I just wanted to make some corrections.
<ul>
<li>You are right that freezing might not be feasible in specific cases; I misunderstood you there.
</li>
<li>Yes I would personally prefer to maximize total world wealth, broadly understood, but the phrase &#8220;national income&#8221; usually connotes a narrower accounting measure, and my <a href="http://hanson.gmu.edu/futarchy.html" rel="nofollow">proposal</a> is to have a legislature manage the details of defining a national, not world, welfare.
</li>
<li>On signaling, I was complaining about the phrase &#8220;to show we are fit mates,&#8221; not the phrase &#8220;to furthering our genetic fitness.&#8221;
</li>
<li>I agree that I am overall relatively skeptical about medicine, and that I typically refer to a wide margin in medicine, corresponding to the roughly 30% margin examined in the RAND health insurance experiment.  And I have expressed doubts about the other 70%.  But the phrase &#8220;the money we spend &#8230; is a waste&#8221; suggests a stronger claim about a 100% margin.  My reference to clean air and exercise was to distinguish &#8220;health care&#8221; from &#8220;medicine.&#8221;</li>
</ul>
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		<title>By: michael vassar</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/color-character.html#comment-417470</link>
		<dc:creator>michael vassar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/07/colorful-characters.html#comment-417470</guid>
		<description>Eliezer:  I strongly agree with respect to 30 vs. 100 years and increased intelligence or catastrophe.  Even with respect to movement towards attractors however I would be reluctant to assign much difference to, say 75 vs. 250 years or any difference between 200 and 600 years (given our ages, extrapolated linear gains in life expectancy, and the known life expectancy IQ correlation we can expect to talk it over then even without radical tech changes.  even mild CR would clinch it).  If we make it another 75 years without reaching an attractor I will consider our current models to be substantially falsified.  200 years would constitute more-or-less total falsification, but without greater than human intelligence our odds of seeing the results may be substantially lower in that case.  No, probably not really.  We probably gain more chance of making it to 228 via eliminating catastrophic risk than we loose via eliminating increased intelligence as a possibility.  Not that we have a choice in the matter.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eliezer:  I strongly agree with respect to 30 vs. 100 years and increased intelligence or catastrophe.  Even with respect to movement towards attractors however I would be reluctant to assign much difference to, say 75 vs. 250 years or any difference between 200 and 600 years (given our ages, extrapolated linear gains in life expectancy, and the known life expectancy IQ correlation we can expect to talk it over then even without radical tech changes.  even mild CR would clinch it).  If we make it another 75 years without reaching an attractor I will consider our current models to be substantially falsified.  200 years would constitute more-or-less total falsification, but without greater than human intelligence our odds of seeing the results may be substantially lower in that case.  No, probably not really.  We probably gain more chance of making it to 228 via eliminating catastrophic risk than we loose via eliminating increased intelligence as a possibility.  Not that we have a choice in the matter.</p>
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