Comments on: Doubting Thomas and Pious Pete http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/05/doubting_thomas.html Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 23:23:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Overcoming Bias : I Had the Same Idea as David Brin! (Sort Of) http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/05/doubting_thomas.html#comment-428995 Overcoming Bias : I Had the Same Idea as David Brin! (Sort Of) Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:51:30 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/05/doubting-thomas-and-pious-pete.html#comment-428995 [...] few days ago I wrote a post about how a much more defensible position regarding religion can be disadvantaged in debate against [...] [...] few days ago I wrote a post about how a much more defensible position regarding religion can be disadvantaged in debate against [...]

]]> By: TGGP http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/05/doubting_thomas.html#comment-419518 TGGP Sun, 13 May 2007 21:49:39 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/05/doubting-thomas-and-pious-pete.html#comment-419518 joe, the theological view I am expounding is just good-old fashioned Calvinism. It's as American as witch-burning. For more on different views of free-will and what science says about them, read Joshua Greene and Jonathan Cohen's "<a href="http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~jgreene/GreeneWJH/GreeneCohenPhilTrans-04.pdf" rel="nofollow">For the law, neuroscience changes nothing and everything</a>". joe, the theological view I am expounding is just good-old fashioned Calvinism. It’s as American as witch-burning. For more on different views of free-will and what science says about them, read Joshua Greene and Jonathan Cohen’s “For the law, neuroscience changes nothing and everything“.

]]> By: joe http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/05/doubting_thomas.html#comment-419517 joe Sun, 13 May 2007 17:46:31 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/05/doubting-thomas-and-pious-pete.html#comment-419517 Nick, Could you please expound on your statement "libertarian free will is logically incoherent regardless of what you believe about God" thanks, Joe Nick,
Could you please expound on your statement “libertarian free will is logically incoherent regardless of what you believe about God”
thanks,
Joe

]]> By: Nick Tarleton http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/05/doubting_thomas.html#comment-419516 Nick Tarleton Sun, 13 May 2007 17:10:36 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/05/doubting-thomas-and-pious-pete.html#comment-419516 joe, libertarian free will is logically incoherent regardless of what you believe about God, and plenty of people realize this and don't consider life meaningless. joe, libertarian free will is logically incoherent regardless of what you believe about God, and plenty of people realize this and don’t consider life meaningless.

]]> By: joe http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/05/doubting_thomas.html#comment-419515 joe Sun, 13 May 2007 05:08:52 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/05/doubting-thomas-and-pious-pete.html#comment-419515 "Parents and teachers have limited ability to make children "truly understand", God does not" I think that is precisely the point. Notice that I draw a distinction between truly understanding and the transfer of knowledge/facts from parent/teacher to child. "If he did not know what was going to happen, he was not truly omniscient and if he could not bring about his desired state of affairs, he was not truly omnipotent." I see that I am getting schooled here by using terms that lay-people toss around without much thought to their implications. So, I believe you are saying that if god is truly omnipotent and omniscient, then when he created the universe, he must have known every result of his actions or else he is not truly omnipotent....good point. I guess I don't believe that if there is a god, he is either omniscient or omnipotent, nor do I think that any religion truly does either. If god is omnipotent and omniscient, then we must live in a completely deterministic world for how could he be otherwise. If that is the case, then humans do not have free-will or the power to make any decisions. However, there also many implications to this view including the pointlessness of heaven and hell. If god controls everything, then there is no point to either punish or reward someone in the afterlife since all of one's actions while alive were determined by god himself. Say goodbye to any point in talking about good and evil, morality, or responsibility and accountability for one's actions... doesn't life necessarily become completely meaningless? “Parents and teachers have limited ability to make children “truly understand”, God does not”

I think that is precisely the point. Notice that I draw a distinction between truly understanding and the transfer of knowledge/facts from parent/teacher to child.

“If he did not know what was going to happen, he was not truly omniscient and if he could not bring about his desired state of affairs, he was not truly omnipotent.”

I see that I am getting schooled here by using terms that lay-people toss around without much thought to their implications.

So, I believe you are saying that if god is truly omnipotent and omniscient, then when he created the universe, he must have known every result of his actions or else he is not truly omnipotent….good point. I guess I don’t believe that if there is a god, he is either omniscient or omnipotent, nor do I think that any religion truly does either.

If god is omnipotent and omniscient, then we must live in a completely deterministic world for how could he be otherwise. If that is the case, then humans do not have free-will or the power to make any decisions. However, there also many implications to this view including the pointlessness of heaven and hell. If god controls everything, then there is no point to either punish or reward someone in the afterlife since all of one’s actions while alive were determined by god himself. Say goodbye to any point in talking about good and evil, morality, or responsibility and accountability for one’s actions… doesn’t life necessarily become completely meaningless?

]]> By: TGGP http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/05/doubting_thomas.html#comment-419514 TGGP Sun, 13 May 2007 03:23:56 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/05/doubting-thomas-and-pious-pete.html#comment-419514 joe, God knew in advance what would result from the initial conditions of his creating the universe. By virtue of his role in creating the universe He MUST "control everything". Everything that happened must have been acceptable to him. If he did not know what was going to happen, he was not truly omniscient and if he could not bring about his desired state of affairs, he was not truly omnipotent. Parents and teachers have limited ability to make children "truly understand" (although I think much of that talk is just bull among educators to avoid accountability, which is discussed in depth at <a href="http://d-edreckoning.blogspot.com/2006/04/dead-reckoning.html" rel="nofollow">this blog</a>), GOD DOES NOT. If God wanted us to "truly understand" then we WOULD. I <a href="http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/04/god-theory-and-practice.php" rel="nofollow">once believed in a somewhat inactive God</a>, but that conception MADE NO SENSE. joe, God knew in advance what would result from the initial conditions of his creating the universe. By virtue of his role in creating the universe He MUST “control everything”. Everything that happened must have been acceptable to him. If he did not know what was going to happen, he was not truly omniscient and if he could not bring about his desired state of affairs, he was not truly omnipotent. Parents and teachers have limited ability to make children “truly understand” (although I think much of that talk is just bull among educators to avoid accountability, which is discussed in depth at this blog), GOD DOES NOT. If God wanted us to “truly understand” then we WOULD. I once believed in a somewhat inactive God, but that conception MADE NO SENSE.

]]> By: joe http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/05/doubting_thomas.html#comment-419513 joe Sat, 12 May 2007 04:05:24 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/05/doubting-thomas-and-pious-pete.html#comment-419513 I think you missed the point of the analogy... maybe god, like good parents, knows the best way for people to learn certain lessons about life. Having the knowledge would not necessarily mean that we would understand. I would say this is analogous to students being able to memorize formulae and methods from textbooks, but not really understanding the material. Perhaps an omniscient god knows the best way for us to understand. Clearly, we have some, if not complete control of our lives. Thus, if there is a god, even if he is omnipotent and omniscient, he is allowing us to make at least some decisions. "He created the conditions that caused people to not believe in him." Sure, if you want to believe that he is omnipotent and uses this power to control absolutely everything, then sure, I will go along with your above statement. However, I think that is a point on which I can agree to disagree with you. I don't think that an omnipotent god would necessarily use his omnipotence to control everything. What would be the point? I think you missed the point of the analogy… maybe god, like good parents, knows the best way for people to learn certain lessons about life. Having the knowledge would not necessarily mean that we would understand. I would say this is analogous to students being able to memorize formulae and methods from textbooks, but not really understanding the material. Perhaps an omniscient god knows the best way for us to understand.

Clearly, we have some, if not complete control of our lives. Thus, if there is a god, even if he is omnipotent and omniscient, he is allowing us to make at least some decisions.

“He created the conditions that caused people to not believe in him.”

Sure, if you want to believe that he is omnipotent and uses this power to control absolutely everything, then sure, I will go along with your above statement. However, I think that is a point on which I can agree to disagree with you. I don’t think that an omnipotent god would necessarily use his omnipotence to control everything. What would be the point?

]]> By: TGGP http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/05/doubting_thomas.html#comment-419512 TGGP Sat, 12 May 2007 01:37:10 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/05/doubting-thomas-and-pious-pete.html#comment-419512 Parents are not omnipotent and omniscient. God (assuming He actually exists) is. God was able to foresee whether or not we would believe in him. He created the conditions that caused people to not believe in him. The obvious conclusion would be that God doesn't actually want many people to believe in him at all, or some of our assumptions (God's existence, omnipotence or omniscience) are wrong. Parents are not omnipotent and omniscient. God (assuming He actually exists) is. God was able to foresee whether or not we would believe in him. He created the conditions that caused people to not believe in him. The obvious conclusion would be that God doesn’t actually want many people to believe in him at all, or some of our assumptions (God’s existence, omnipotence or omniscience) are wrong.

]]> By: joe http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/05/doubting_thomas.html#comment-419511 joe Thu, 10 May 2007 19:11:24 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/05/doubting-thomas-and-pious-pete.html#comment-419511 Why would it be natural to conclude that god would use his powers to force people to believe something? There is a big difference between expressing your views for the sake of teaching and imposing your opinions on someone. Parents understand that no matter how much guidance they try to give their kids, that there are some things that kids just have to learn on their own if they are going to truly learn and understand. Why would it be natural to conclude that god would use his powers to force people to believe something? There is a big difference between expressing your views for the sake of teaching and imposing your opinions on someone. Parents understand that no matter how much guidance they try to give their kids, that there are some things that kids just have to learn on their own if they are going to truly learn and understand.

]]> By: TGGP http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/05/doubting_thomas.html#comment-419510 TGGP Thu, 10 May 2007 10:18:25 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/05/doubting-thomas-and-pious-pete.html#comment-419510 joe, if God is omnipotent and truly desired for people to believe something, shouldn't his will have already been done? That seems to be what others have been getting at above. joe, if God is omnipotent and truly desired for people to believe something, shouldn’t his will have already been done? That seems to be what others have been getting at above.

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