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	<title>Comments on: Overconfidence Erases Doc Advantage</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/overconfidence_.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 23:23:58 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Overcoming Bias : Trust Govt More?</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/overconfidence_.html#comment-469827</link>
		<dc:creator>Overcoming Bias : Trust Govt More?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2011 11:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/04/overconfidence-erases-doc-advantage.html#comment-469827</guid>
		<description>[...] rules prevent cheaper medicine via nurses directly managing patients, even though randomized trials suggest nurses are just as effective. This all just shows what a strong lock doctors have on [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] rules prevent cheaper medicine via nurses directly managing patients, even though randomized trials suggest nurses are just as effective. This all just shows what a strong lock doctors have on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas H.</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/overconfidence_.html#comment-469821</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2011 04:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/04/overconfidence-erases-doc-advantage.html#comment-469821</guid>
		<description>Questionable pneumonias are nothing new. The question is who decides what represents a pneumonia and what the gold standard is for the study you site? Oftentimes two radiologist both with years of experience reading chest x rays will differ in interpretation son chest x rays. That is where experience and training and the art of medicine come in. Ad a patient you want a Doctor who is going to weigh the risk benefit of treatment correctly in the case of a questionable pneumonia. It wasn&#039;t overconfidence but caution that leads to &quot;overduagnosis&quot; of pneumonia and let&#039;s not forget that antibiotics currently have a role in the treatment of copd under current treatment guidelines. The scoring and &quot;core measures&quot; used to measure physicians are what is deficient. They aren&#039;t sophisticated or even correct enough to measure the effects of superior medical education. One thing is for sure less training and knowlege are not beneficial in highly complex fields such as medicine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Questionable pneumonias are nothing new. The question is who decides what represents a pneumonia and what the gold standard is for the study you site? Oftentimes two radiologist both with years of experience reading chest x rays will differ in interpretation son chest x rays. That is where experience and training and the art of medicine come in. Ad a patient you want a Doctor who is going to weigh the risk benefit of treatment correctly in the case of a questionable pneumonia. It wasn&#8217;t overconfidence but caution that leads to &#8220;overduagnosis&#8221; of pneumonia and let&#8217;s not forget that antibiotics currently have a role in the treatment of copd under current treatment guidelines. The scoring and &#8220;core measures&#8221; used to measure physicians are what is deficient. They aren&#8217;t sophisticated or even correct enough to measure the effects of superior medical education. One thing is for sure less training and knowlege are not beneficial in highly complex fields such as medicine.</p>
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		<title>By: TheMoneyIllusion &#187; That American entrepreneurial spirit</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/overconfidence_.html#comment-425338</link>
		<dc:creator>TheMoneyIllusion &#187; That American entrepreneurial spirit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:35:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/04/overconfidence-erases-doc-advantage.html#comment-425338</guid>
		<description>[...] where do we go from here?  Robin Hanson has convinced me that most of the money we spend on health care is wasted.  Thus Singapore&#8217;s [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] where do we go from here?  Robin Hanson has convinced me that most of the money we spend on health care is wasted.  Thus Singapore&#8217;s [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/overconfidence_.html#comment-419951</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/04/overconfidence-erases-doc-advantage.html#comment-419951</guid>
		<description>Peter, thanks for taking the trouble of looking that up!
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter, thanks for taking the trouble of looking that up!</p>
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		<title>By: Peter McCluskey</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/overconfidence_.html#comment-419950</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter McCluskey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:34:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/04/overconfidence-erases-doc-advantage.html#comment-419950</guid>
		<description>I found it easy to imagine that people mistakenly believe pilot safety improves with experience, so I did a quick search and found signs that the evidence is inconclusive.
There seems to be &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.airaccidentdigest.com/0207_story1.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;evidence&lt;/a&gt; that pilots with 100+ hours of experience in the type of aircraft they&#039;re flying are substantially safer than less experienced pilots.
For much larger amounts of experience, there&#039;s evidence that people overestimate the value of experience, but we can&#039;t conclude that increasing experience is worthless. Some quotes from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/age60/media/age60_1.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/age60/media/age60_1.pdf&lt;/a&gt;:
&quot;Outcomes from Golaszewski (1983, 1991, 1993) where certain pilot groups demonstrated an increased incidence of accidents with increased age still showed evidence that experience and recent flight time were somewhat protective.&quot;
&quot;Researchers and the general public are typically of the opinion that experience will reduce the magnitude of the age differences in cognitive functioning. As Salthouse (1990) points out, despite the general acceptance of this concept, the scientific evidence is less clear cut.&quot;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found it easy to imagine that people mistakenly believe pilot safety improves with experience, so I did a quick search and found signs that the evidence is inconclusive.<br />
There seems to be <a href="http://www.airaccidentdigest.com/0207_story1.html" rel="nofollow">evidence</a> that pilots with 100+ hours of experience in the type of aircraft they&#8217;re flying are substantially safer than less experienced pilots.<br />
For much larger amounts of experience, there&#8217;s evidence that people overestimate the value of experience, but we can&#8217;t conclude that increasing experience is worthless. Some quotes from <a href="http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/age60/media/age60_1.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/age60/media/age60_1.pdf</a>:<br />
&#8220;Outcomes from Golaszewski (1983, 1991, 1993) where certain pilot groups demonstrated an increased incidence of accidents with increased age still showed evidence that experience and recent flight time were somewhat protective.&#8221;<br />
&#8220;Researchers and the general public are typically of the opinion that experience will reduce the magnitude of the age differences in cognitive functioning. As Salthouse (1990) points out, despite the general acceptance of this concept, the scientific evidence is less clear cut.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/overconfidence_.html#comment-419949</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/04/overconfidence-erases-doc-advantage.html#comment-419949</guid>
		<description>Rick, thanks for the reference to that interesting review article comparing specialists to generalist docs.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick, thanks for the reference to that interesting review article comparing specialists to generalist docs.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Davidson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/overconfidence_.html#comment-419948</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Davidson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:54:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/04/overconfidence-erases-doc-advantage.html#comment-419948</guid>
		<description>Robin, there have been a number of studies in the past that looked at comparisons between specialists and primary care physicians in the management of various conditions; in fact, a systematic review has been done that pointed out a number of methodologic issues (http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/1/10), but a comparison could be done. Because of the natural history of common ailments, a very large sample size would be expected to avoid a type 2 error--probably too large to be realistic. However, an old friend of mine, Tim Carey, published a NEJM article about the care provided for back pain by multiple specialists, including NP&#039;s, and found no difference in the quality of care using a very simple outcome measure. Interestingly, patients of chiropracters were most satisfied with their care....and spent the most money on care, even though there were no differences in outcomes (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/333/14/913).

Many years ago Dave Sackett was involved in several studies that demonstrated a decline in the knowledge of the best treatment of hypertension that was associated with the year the physician graduated from medical school. A strong argument for evidence-based medicine, as it&#039;s the lack of reading the current literature that is primarily responsible for this deterioration.

At our institution the tuition in vet school is less than med school, and most vets begin their practice immediately after graduating; med students have a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 8 years of residency before starting their practice. Residents&#039; salaries will not make much of a dent in a large debt. Don&#039;t get me wrong, I&#039;m not arguing that doctors are underpaid; they&#039;re not, but the distribution of the payment is what&#039;s wrong with salaries. Why should an ophthalmologist make $5000 for a 20 minute cataract extraction and an internist who spends an hour and half trying to diagnose a complex problem get reimbursed $60?

If you look at the figures regarding rising medical costs, there was one time (the early &#039;90s) that the rise leveled off and in fact even decreased (http://hspm.sph.sc.edu/Courses/Econ/Classes/nhe00/). The reason? Significantly managed care. That was the time of the aggressive HMO, when all procedures were questioned, and there were significant limitations in provider choice. What happened? The public would not accept those kind of restrictions. If you saw &quot;As Good As It Gets&quot;, remember Helen Hunt&#039;s rant about HMO&#039;s?  So health plans changed. Less than 1% of requests are denied, some plans don&#039;t even ask for approval now, and the selection of providers is much broader with more options. And with that relaxation, costs immediately began rising again. Thing will get worse. The population is aging, and there&#039;s new and expensive technology developed every day. I agree with the comment about the political will being the driving force. It&#039;s one thing to have lower middle class workers lose their health insurance; when this starts happening to a broader section of the population, who wield more political power, there will be a national health plan of some kind.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin, there have been a number of studies in the past that looked at comparisons between specialists and primary care physicians in the management of various conditions; in fact, a systematic review has been done that pointed out a number of methodologic issues (<a href="http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/1/10" rel="nofollow">http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/1/10</a>), but a comparison could be done. Because of the natural history of common ailments, a very large sample size would be expected to avoid a type 2 error&#8211;probably too large to be realistic. However, an old friend of mine, Tim Carey, published a NEJM article about the care provided for back pain by multiple specialists, including NP&#8217;s, and found no difference in the quality of care using a very simple outcome measure. Interestingly, patients of chiropracters were most satisfied with their care&#8230;.and spent the most money on care, even though there were no differences in outcomes (<a href="http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/333/14/913" rel="nofollow">http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/333/14/913</a>).</p>
<p>Many years ago Dave Sackett was involved in several studies that demonstrated a decline in the knowledge of the best treatment of hypertension that was associated with the year the physician graduated from medical school. A strong argument for evidence-based medicine, as it&#8217;s the lack of reading the current literature that is primarily responsible for this deterioration.</p>
<p>At our institution the tuition in vet school is less than med school, and most vets begin their practice immediately after graduating; med students have a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 8 years of residency before starting their practice. Residents&#8217; salaries will not make much of a dent in a large debt. Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I&#8217;m not arguing that doctors are underpaid; they&#8217;re not, but the distribution of the payment is what&#8217;s wrong with salaries. Why should an ophthalmologist make $5000 for a 20 minute cataract extraction and an internist who spends an hour and half trying to diagnose a complex problem get reimbursed $60?</p>
<p>If you look at the figures regarding rising medical costs, there was one time (the early &#8217;90s) that the rise leveled off and in fact even decreased (<a href="http://hspm.sph.sc.edu/Courses/Econ/Classes/nhe00/" rel="nofollow">http://hspm.sph.sc.edu/Courses/Econ/Classes/nhe00/</a>). The reason? Significantly managed care. That was the time of the aggressive HMO, when all procedures were questioned, and there were significant limitations in provider choice. What happened? The public would not accept those kind of restrictions. If you saw &#8220;As Good As It Gets&#8221;, remember Helen Hunt&#8217;s rant about HMO&#8217;s?  So health plans changed. Less than 1% of requests are denied, some plans don&#8217;t even ask for approval now, and the selection of providers is much broader with more options. And with that relaxation, costs immediately began rising again. Thing will get worse. The population is aging, and there&#8217;s new and expensive technology developed every day. I agree with the comment about the political will being the driving force. It&#8217;s one thing to have lower middle class workers lose their health insurance; when this starts happening to a broader section of the population, who wield more political power, there will be a national health plan of some kind.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/overconfidence_.html#comment-419947</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Armstrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/04/overconfidence-erases-doc-advantage.html#comment-419947</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Blaming the astronomical rise in medical costs on primary care is absurd. Try looking at the outrageous cost of procedures, advanced technology...&lt;/i&gt;

Indeed. There are well established industries, like water companies and agriculture - they are characterised by low profits, large amounts of consumers who pay little, stable business models and a declining proportion of GDP. New industries behave differently - high profits, high innovation, little stability, relatively high prices for consumers, and a rising share of GDP.

Healthcare is an established industry that behaves much more like a new industry. Also patients have the propensity to want a &quot;life and quality of life&quot;-saving treatment, if it exists, at whatever the cost. This means that medical innovations push up costs more than in most industries.

So &lt;i&gt;if we really want to reduce medical spending&lt;/i&gt; while maintaining acceptable standards of care, the most rational thing to do is to reduce the pace of medical innovation. Removing patent protections from medical drugs would be the easiest way to do this, and would bring down medical costs in the short term as well.

But if we want to maintain fast medical innovations, we&#039;re probably addicted to rising healthcare costs (not that we can&#039;t try and slow that rise through other means - but slow is all we can do).
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Blaming the astronomical rise in medical costs on primary care is absurd. Try looking at the outrageous cost of procedures, advanced technology&#8230;</i></p>
<p>Indeed. There are well established industries, like water companies and agriculture &#8211; they are characterised by low profits, large amounts of consumers who pay little, stable business models and a declining proportion of GDP. New industries behave differently &#8211; high profits, high innovation, little stability, relatively high prices for consumers, and a rising share of GDP.</p>
<p>Healthcare is an established industry that behaves much more like a new industry. Also patients have the propensity to want a &#8220;life and quality of life&#8221;-saving treatment, if it exists, at whatever the cost. This means that medical innovations push up costs more than in most industries.</p>
<p>So <i>if we really want to reduce medical spending</i> while maintaining acceptable standards of care, the most rational thing to do is to reduce the pace of medical innovation. Removing patent protections from medical drugs would be the easiest way to do this, and would bring down medical costs in the short term as well.</p>
<p>But if we want to maintain fast medical innovations, we&#8217;re probably addicted to rising healthcare costs (not that we can&#8217;t try and slow that rise through other means &#8211; but slow is all we can do).</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/overconfidence_.html#comment-419946</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Armstrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/04/overconfidence-erases-doc-advantage.html#comment-419946</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If costs do keep rising astronomically, at some point presumably the political will will come to be there.&lt;/i&gt;

How can you be sure? Someone dying on a hospital bed would presumably pay any amount of money he could afford to survive (with a good quality and length of life afterwards).

If we let the market decide (either the monetary or the political market) I don&#039;t see any reason why medical expenditure wouldn&#039;t reach 80-90% of GDP.

There are people on this blog (myself included) who have ambitions of becoming immortal. How much of your income would you be willing to pay out to achieve that goal? Because that&#039;s the market upper bound on the percentage of GDP devoted to healthcare.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If costs do keep rising astronomically, at some point presumably the political will will come to be there.</i></p>
<p>How can you be sure? Someone dying on a hospital bed would presumably pay any amount of money he could afford to survive (with a good quality and length of life afterwards).</p>
<p>If we let the market decide (either the monetary or the political market) I don&#8217;t see any reason why medical expenditure wouldn&#8217;t reach 80-90% of GDP.</p>
<p>There are people on this blog (myself included) who have ambitions of becoming immortal. How much of your income would you be willing to pay out to achieve that goal? Because that&#8217;s the market upper bound on the percentage of GDP devoted to healthcare.</p>
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		<title>By: The Stalwart</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/overconfidence_.html#comment-419952</link>
		<dc:creator>The Stalwart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/04/overconfidence-erases-doc-advantage.html#comment-419952</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;More Reason To Support Walk-in Clinics&lt;/strong&gt;

On the overconfidence of doctors: 1316 patients who had no regular source of care and kept their initial primary care appointment were enrolled and randomized with either a nurse practitioner (n = 806) or physician (n = 510). ... No
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>More Reason To Support Walk-in Clinics</strong></p>
<p>On the overconfidence of doctors: 1316 patients who had no regular source of care and kept their initial primary care appointment were enrolled and randomized with either a nurse practitioner (n = 806) or physician (n = 510). &#8230; No</p>
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