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	<title>Comments on: Needed: Cognitive forensics?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/wanted_cognitiv.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/wanted_cognitiv.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/wanted_cognitiv.html#comment-422200</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/needed-cognitive-forensics.html#comment-422200</guid>
		<description>Two thoughts: (1) Research is too specialized; at best we&#039;d need a subgroup in each field (e.g. econ, soc, polit sci...).
(2) I see more promise in simply raising the value of refereeing. If refereeing is highly valued, especially in top journals, the supply of high-quality refereeing will increase, and that includes detecting fraud.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two thoughts: (1) Research is too specialized; at best we&#8217;d need a subgroup in each field (e.g. econ, soc, polit sci&#8230;).<br />
(2) I see more promise in simply raising the value of refereeing. If refereeing is highly valued, especially in top journals, the supply of high-quality refereeing will increase, and that includes detecting fraud.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Bostrom</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/wanted_cognitiv.html#comment-422199</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Bostrom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:58:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/needed-cognitive-forensics.html#comment-422199</guid>
		<description>Michael, I think several of us have had a worry from the beginning that giving more prominence to bias-talk could make the bias problem worse, because it might be easier to obfuscate the truth in a cloud of bias-allegation than to hide it under smoke screens of selective citation of first-level data etc. Also, bias-allegations might be more likely to trigger tribal feelings than is the dry discussion of first-level data. There is a reason why the use of ad hominem arguments is tightly circumscribed in academic discourse.

Yet my instinct is to charge ahead and to expand the number of interesting, important questions that academics are encouraged to think systematically about. In particular, if the methodological tools that can be developed in cognitive forensics turn out to be so weak that they become misused on a massive scale, then (I&#039;d expect) norms will develop that discount arguments constructed with these tools, so not much damage will be done.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, I think several of us have had a worry from the beginning that giving more prominence to bias-talk could make the bias problem worse, because it might be easier to obfuscate the truth in a cloud of bias-allegation than to hide it under smoke screens of selective citation of first-level data etc. Also, bias-allegations might be more likely to trigger tribal feelings than is the dry discussion of first-level data. There is a reason why the use of ad hominem arguments is tightly circumscribed in academic discourse.</p>
<p>Yet my instinct is to charge ahead and to expand the number of interesting, important questions that academics are encouraged to think systematically about. In particular, if the methodological tools that can be developed in cognitive forensics turn out to be so weak that they become misused on a massive scale, then (I&#8217;d expect) norms will develop that discount arguments constructed with these tools, so not much damage will be done.</p>
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		<title>By: michael vassar</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/wanted_cognitiv.html#comment-422198</link>
		<dc:creator>michael vassar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/needed-cognitive-forensics.html#comment-422198</guid>
		<description>Nick:  I think Douglas is actually right here, on both of his points.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick:  I think Douglas is actually right here, on both of his points.</p>
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		<title>By: commentor</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/wanted_cognitiv.html#comment-422197</link>
		<dc:creator>commentor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 07:11:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/needed-cognitive-forensics.html#comment-422197</guid>
		<description>&gt;  Mainly there are papers about funding bias

These often themselves reflect an extreme bias.  For example, they trash almost any kind of private funding (e.g. by oil companies on subjects that effect oil companies) but blithely ignore the extreme and endemic conflicts of interest among government-funded scholars who promote the virtues of government generally and government by their kind of expertise in particular.

It&#039;s a great example of bias being more extreme due to it being more centralized and authoritative and thereby even less accountable.  A &quot;bias police&quot; is the perfect way to create more extreme and unfixable bias.  Extreme bias that we must all accept as normal.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>>  Mainly there are papers about funding bias</p>
<p>These often themselves reflect an extreme bias.  For example, they trash almost any kind of private funding (e.g. by oil companies on subjects that effect oil companies) but blithely ignore the extreme and endemic conflicts of interest among government-funded scholars who promote the virtues of government generally and government by their kind of expertise in particular.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a great example of bias being more extreme due to it being more centralized and authoritative and thereby even less accountable.  A &#8220;bias police&#8221; is the perfect way to create more extreme and unfixable bias.  Extreme bias that we must all accept as normal.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Bostrom</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/wanted_cognitiv.html#comment-422196</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Bostrom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 03:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/needed-cognitive-forensics.html#comment-422196</guid>
		<description>Douglas, would people bother writing such papers without a preidentified bad guy? I think so. Many academics would like to publish papers that show that the received wisdom in some area was wrong, or ones that improved on the current best estimates.

Paul, I think that the pattern of error may be different depending on how it originated. Motivated errors might have distinct signatures that one could detect (and they might also lack some signatures by which one can identify inadvertent error). Thus, they pose a special challenge which we (or somebody) should think about.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Douglas, would people bother writing such papers without a preidentified bad guy? I think so. Many academics would like to publish papers that show that the received wisdom in some area was wrong, or ones that improved on the current best estimates.</p>
<p>Paul, I think that the pattern of error may be different depending on how it originated. Motivated errors might have distinct signatures that one could detect (and they might also lack some signatures by which one can identify inadvertent error). Thus, they pose a special challenge which we (or somebody) should think about.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Gowder</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/wanted_cognitiv.html#comment-422195</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Gowder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 22:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/needed-cognitive-forensics.html#comment-422195</guid>
		<description>Why the focus on &quot;motivated&quot; error, anyway?  How do you determine the intent behind bad research, and who cares?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why the focus on &#8220;motivated&#8221; error, anyway?  How do you determine the intent behind bad research, and who cares?</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Knight</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/wanted_cognitiv.html#comment-422194</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/needed-cognitive-forensics.html#comment-422194</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Unless you think scientists are better off ignoring statisticians&lt;/em&gt;

My impression of the status quo is that scientists have off-loaded understanding of the use and abuse of statistical methods (eg, overfitting) to the statisticians, and then proceeded to ignore them, the worst of both worlds.


Nick Bostrom: The few examples I know of meta-analyses making accusations of bias are of type (B). They are also politicized. Mainly there are papers about funding bias. Would RH&#039;s meta-analysis contrasting control variables to focal variables be as well-received? Would people bother to write such papers without a preidentified bad guy?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Unless you think scientists are better off ignoring statisticians</em></p>
<p>My impression of the status quo is that scientists have off-loaded understanding of the use and abuse of statistical methods (eg, overfitting) to the statisticians, and then proceeded to ignore them, the worst of both worlds.</p>
<p>Nick Bostrom: The few examples I know of meta-analyses making accusations of bias are of type (B). They are also politicized. Mainly there are papers about funding bias. Would RH&#8217;s meta-analysis contrasting control variables to focal variables be as well-received? Would people bother to write such papers without a preidentified bad guy?</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/wanted_cognitiv.html#comment-422193</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:35:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/needed-cognitive-forensics.html#comment-422193</guid>
		<description>I wonder if some of this stuff is not better addressed by &quot;opening up&quot; academia to more daylight.

For example, my own field of software development, the most interesting techniques, ideas, and even implementations are researched, discussed, critiqued, and posted to the web, on blogs, email lists, and bulletin boards.  Of course not every line of code of every software product is available on the internet, but many of them are (Linux, apache group, many frameworks and components) along with tons of &quot;here&#039;s how you do this&quot; sample code and lots of troubleshooting, all more-or-less easily navigable via google.

I would suspect that subjecting academic research to the same kinds of open environments and discussions would be likely to lead to the kinds of iterative, evolutionary progress in methods and rigor.  The biggest barrier to this is probably the stranglehold that the academic press holds over journal articles.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if some of this stuff is not better addressed by &#8220;opening up&#8221; academia to more daylight.</p>
<p>For example, my own field of software development, the most interesting techniques, ideas, and even implementations are researched, discussed, critiqued, and posted to the web, on blogs, email lists, and bulletin boards.  Of course not every line of code of every software product is available on the internet, but many of them are (Linux, apache group, many frameworks and components) along with tons of &#8220;here&#8217;s how you do this&#8221; sample code and lots of troubleshooting, all more-or-less easily navigable via google.</p>
<p>I would suspect that subjecting academic research to the same kinds of open environments and discussions would be likely to lead to the kinds of iterative, evolutionary progress in methods and rigor.  The biggest barrier to this is probably the stranglehold that the academic press holds over journal articles.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Bostrom</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/wanted_cognitiv.html#comment-422192</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Bostrom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/needed-cognitive-forensics.html#comment-422192</guid>
		<description>For those of you who worry about the biases of the enforcers...

I think I might have given the wrong impression when I wrote about &quot;apprehending the culprits&quot;. I wasn&#039;t actually thinking about some sort of academic police force tasked with combating scientific fraud. Maybe such a thing would be useful; I&#039;m not sure. Yes, scientific fraud does happen, and it&#039;s a serious offense, but my guess is that it&#039;s a small fraction of the problem. The great bulk of the problem is the vast grey zone between fraud and inadvertent error.

I was thinking more about this grey zone, and even there I was thinking primarily about detecting biases on a topic rather than biases of particular individuals or research groups. And the &quot;enforcement&quot; I had in mind is merely the publication of academic critique.

Let me distinguish three things that a cognitive forensics could be or include:

A. Detecting scientific fraud. Developing better tools and methods for this might be useful for journal editors and referees, and could help scientific communities to better police themselves. I&#039;m not proposing any kind of new police force for this, just better tools.

B. Detecting motivated error on some topic, primarily through data mining and statistical analysis. This is what I had in mind. I see a need for better tools for this, and for specialists who are skilled at developing and using these tools. The only enforcement power these specialists would have would be to publish meta-analyses and critiques.

C. Combating bias in general. This is a much more open-ended project, what we are trying to do on this blog. A great many disciplines are needed to do this well. It&#039;s also more of an art than a science. I&#039;m not sure this is yet ready to become a recognized &quot;field&quot; in its own right, although something like that might one day emerge if we can build up a community of people who are interested in these issues. But one could start with something more narrow, such as (A) and (B).

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those of you who worry about the biases of the enforcers&#8230;</p>
<p>I think I might have given the wrong impression when I wrote about &#8220;apprehending the culprits&#8221;. I wasn&#8217;t actually thinking about some sort of academic police force tasked with combating scientific fraud. Maybe such a thing would be useful; I&#8217;m not sure. Yes, scientific fraud does happen, and it&#8217;s a serious offense, but my guess is that it&#8217;s a small fraction of the problem. The great bulk of the problem is the vast grey zone between fraud and inadvertent error.</p>
<p>I was thinking more about this grey zone, and even there I was thinking primarily about detecting biases on a topic rather than biases of particular individuals or research groups. And the &#8220;enforcement&#8221; I had in mind is merely the publication of academic critique.</p>
<p>Let me distinguish three things that a cognitive forensics could be or include:</p>
<p>A. Detecting scientific fraud. Developing better tools and methods for this might be useful for journal editors and referees, and could help scientific communities to better police themselves. I&#8217;m not proposing any kind of new police force for this, just better tools.</p>
<p>B. Detecting motivated error on some topic, primarily through data mining and statistical analysis. This is what I had in mind. I see a need for better tools for this, and for specialists who are skilled at developing and using these tools. The only enforcement power these specialists would have would be to publish meta-analyses and critiques.</p>
<p>C. Combating bias in general. This is a much more open-ended project, what we are trying to do on this blog. A great many disciplines are needed to do this well. It&#8217;s also more of an art than a science. I&#8217;m not sure this is yet ready to become a recognized &#8220;field&#8221; in its own right, although something like that might one day emerge if we can build up a community of people who are interested in these issues. But one could start with something more narrow, such as (A) and (B).</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/wanted_cognitiv.html#comment-422191</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 10:50:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/needed-cognitive-forensics.html#comment-422191</guid>
		<description>Those of you who are worried about the biases of these specialists, compare them to statisticians.  Unless you think scientists are better off ignoring statisticians, or that the bias problem is worse for motivation-bias specialists than for statisticians, you should expect these specialists to also add value.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those of you who are worried about the biases of these specialists, compare them to statisticians.  Unless you think scientists are better off ignoring statisticians, or that the bias problem is worse for motivation-bias specialists than for statisticians, you should expect these specialists to also add value.</p>
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