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	<title>Comments on: Gender Profiling</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/gender_profilin.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/gender_profilin.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Steve Sailer</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/gender_profilin.html#comment-422299</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Sailer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 06:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/gender-profiling.html#comment-422299</guid>
		<description>As Lenin pointed out, what people care about is &quot;Who? Whom?&quot; Not justice, logic, or anything objective. They want to see their favorites win and the people they don&#039;t like lose, and they don&#039;t really care why.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Lenin pointed out, what people care about is &#8220;Who? Whom?&#8221; Not justice, logic, or anything objective. They want to see their favorites win and the people they don&#8217;t like lose, and they don&#8217;t really care why.</p>
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		<title>By: Zubon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/gender_profilin.html#comment-422298</link>
		<dc:creator>Zubon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/gender-profiling.html#comment-422298</guid>
		<description>Douglas Knight: according to the latest &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bts.gov/publications/highlights_of_the_2001_national_household_travel_survey/html/table_a17.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;National Household Travel Survey&lt;/a&gt;, men drive 64% of miles (and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bts.gov/publications/highlights_of_the_2001_national_household_travel_survey/html/table_a16.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;61% of minutes&lt;/a&gt;).  Note that men are still disproportionately represented in crashes, but the degree of dis-proportionality decreases when your basis of comparison moves from the total population to the driving population to the miles/minutes spent driving.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Douglas Knight: according to the latest <a href="http://www.bts.gov/publications/highlights_of_the_2001_national_household_travel_survey/html/table_a17.html" rel="nofollow">National Household Travel Survey</a>, men drive 64% of miles (and <a href="http://www.bts.gov/publications/highlights_of_the_2001_national_household_travel_survey/html/table_a16.html" rel="nofollow">61% of minutes</a>).  Note that men are still disproportionately represented in crashes, but the degree of dis-proportionality decreases when your basis of comparison moves from the total population to the driving population to the miles/minutes spent driving.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Knight</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/gender_profilin.html#comment-422297</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/gender-profiling.html#comment-422297</guid>
		<description>Zubon:
I am shocked that males account for such a small number of fatalities. Surely, males drive more than 70% of miles. That the document does not include such numbers makes it pretty worthless; it casts doubt on the good intentions and competence of the authors.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zubon:<br />
I am shocked that males account for such a small number of fatalities. Surely, males drive more than 70% of miles. That the document does not include such numbers makes it pretty worthless; it casts doubt on the good intentions and competence of the authors.</p>
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		<title>By: Zubon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/gender_profilin.html#comment-422296</link>
		<dc:creator>Zubon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Feb 2007 13:12:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/gender-profiling.html#comment-422296</guid>
		<description>Crash data suggests that men are doing far more dangerous things on the road, in terms of both number and severity.  It is unusual for men not to be &lt;em&gt;at least&lt;/em&gt; two-thirds of any crash problem.  The &lt;a href=&quot;http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/TSF2005/OverviewTSF05.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;latest official statistics are from 2005&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;blockquote&gt;In 2005, the fatal crash involvement rate per 100,000 population was almost 3 times higher for male drivers than for females.

Males accounted for 70 percent of all traffic fatalities, 70 percent of all pedestrian fatalities, and 87 percent of all pedalcyclist fatalities in 2005.

Among male drivers involved in fatal crashes in 2005, 23 percent had BAC levels of .08 g/dL or higher, compared with 13 percent of the female drivers involved in fatal crashes.

Among female drivers of passenger vehicles involved in fatal crashes in 2005, 25 percent were unrestrained at the time of the collision, compared with 38 percent of male drivers in fatal crashes.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This makes it likely that women have more trivial traffic infractions or at least ones less likely to get them killed.  If there is a bias against men, it likely arises from this difference in actual behavior.

That bias could make attributions of fault or rates of ticketing/warning somewhat suspect as a reliable measure.  That is, any officer on traffic enforcement knows that young men are the most likely to be doing stupid things that cause crashes.  Therefore, in the event of a crash, you assume the young man was at fault.  Men &lt;em&gt;should&lt;/em&gt; receive most traffic tickets, but it will be hard to say exactly what proportion of traffic infractions men commit.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Crash data suggests that men are doing far more dangerous things on the road, in terms of both number and severity.  It is unusual for men not to be <em>at least</em> two-thirds of any crash problem.  The <a href="http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/TSF2005/OverviewTSF05.pdf" rel="nofollow">latest official statistics are from 2005</a>:<br />
<blockquote>In 2005, the fatal crash involvement rate per 100,000 population was almost 3 times higher for male drivers than for females.</p>
<p>Males accounted for 70 percent of all traffic fatalities, 70 percent of all pedestrian fatalities, and 87 percent of all pedalcyclist fatalities in 2005.</p>
<p>Among male drivers involved in fatal crashes in 2005, 23 percent had BAC levels of .08 g/dL or higher, compared with 13 percent of the female drivers involved in fatal crashes.</p>
<p>Among female drivers of passenger vehicles involved in fatal crashes in 2005, 25 percent were unrestrained at the time of the collision, compared with 38 percent of male drivers in fatal crashes.</p></blockquote>
<p>This makes it likely that women have more trivial traffic infractions or at least ones less likely to get them killed.  If there is a bias against men, it likely arises from this difference in actual behavior.</p>
<p>That bias could make attributions of fault or rates of ticketing/warning somewhat suspect as a reliable measure.  That is, any officer on traffic enforcement knows that young men are the most likely to be doing stupid things that cause crashes.  Therefore, in the event of a crash, you assume the young man was at fault.  Men <em>should</em> receive most traffic tickets, but it will be hard to say exactly what proportion of traffic infractions men commit.</p>
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		<title>By: Razz</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/gender_profilin.html#comment-422295</link>
		<dc:creator>Razz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Feb 2007 16:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/gender-profiling.html#comment-422295</guid>
		<description>&quot;Razz, but its nature all discrimination is both positive and negative - some people benefit relative to others.&quot;

I&#039;m not really sure I agree with that. Seems a little too zero-sum.

Certainly the damage done to others when an attractive female is let go with a warning is very indirect and individually very small. Making it damage that&#039;s very hard to emotionally relate to. Whereas the possibility of being sexually harassed should be quite easy to relate to for a lot of women.

I&#039;m not saying it&#039;s rational reason, it&#039;s just an explanation as to why people do not care much about discrimination that benefits a easily identifiable group rather than harming them. I&#039;d be very surprised if even an atempt at rational thinking played much of a role in determining what engages people in these kind of issues.

Mostly I imagine discrimation is only something that becomes an issue when the damage is something  a bunch of people can imagine happen to them and being pretty bad. If there&#039;s only a small net negative for every individual and only indirectly I doubt many people are going to care at all.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Razz, but its nature all discrimination is both positive and negative &#8211; some people benefit relative to others.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not really sure I agree with that. Seems a little too zero-sum.</p>
<p>Certainly the damage done to others when an attractive female is let go with a warning is very indirect and individually very small. Making it damage that&#8217;s very hard to emotionally relate to. Whereas the possibility of being sexually harassed should be quite easy to relate to for a lot of women.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying it&#8217;s rational reason, it&#8217;s just an explanation as to why people do not care much about discrimination that benefits a easily identifiable group rather than harming them. I&#8217;d be very surprised if even an atempt at rational thinking played much of a role in determining what engages people in these kind of issues.</p>
<p>Mostly I imagine discrimation is only something that becomes an issue when the damage is something  a bunch of people can imagine happen to them and being pretty bad. If there&#8217;s only a small net negative for every individual and only indirectly I doubt many people are going to care at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/gender_profilin.html#comment-422294</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Feb 2007 13:45:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/gender-profiling.html#comment-422294</guid>
		<description>Razz, but its nature all discrimination is both positive and negative - some people benefit relative to others.

Mark, I agree that it is logically possible that female pullover indications tend to be more of trivial infractions; I just don&#039;t find that a plausible explanation in fact.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Razz, but its nature all discrimination is both positive and negative &#8211; some people benefit relative to others.</p>
<p>Mark, I agree that it is logically possible that female pullover indications tend to be more of trivial infractions; I just don&#8217;t find that a plausible explanation in fact.</p>
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		<title>By: Razz</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/gender_profilin.html#comment-422293</link>
		<dc:creator>Razz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Feb 2007 05:58:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/gender-profiling.html#comment-422293</guid>
		<description>&quot;Haven&#039;t studies shown that, contrary to stereotype, women are better drivers?&quot;

I think it&#039;s *safer* rather than *better*.

On average women tend to drive a fair bit less than men as well as being generally less confident and less risk taking than men. So men tend to have more driving experience but also be involved in worse accidents due to overconfidence in their driving abilities.

It also appears that women are 1/3 as likely to drive drunk and also less likely to repeat if convicted. Suggesting a somewhat different risk profile after an infraction.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Haven&#8217;t studies shown that, contrary to stereotype, women are better drivers?&#8221;</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s *safer* rather than *better*.</p>
<p>On average women tend to drive a fair bit less than men as well as being generally less confident and less risk taking than men. So men tend to have more driving experience but also be involved in worse accidents due to overconfidence in their driving abilities.</p>
<p>It also appears that women are 1/3 as likely to drive drunk and also less likely to repeat if convicted. Suggesting a somewhat different risk profile after an infraction.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Nau</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/gender_profilin.html#comment-422292</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Nau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Feb 2007 01:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/gender-profiling.html#comment-422292</guid>
		<description>&quot;But once someone has been pulled over, it seems unreasonable to more often release women with only a warning.&quot;

But the probablistic mix of offenses committed by a typical man-who-is-pulled-over may well be quite different than that for women. Assume for simplicity that cars are pulled over for either reckless driving or trivial infractions. Assume further that men commit &quot;reckless driving&quot; at three times the rate of women. If nearly all reckless driving cases are cited, while nearly all trivial infraction cases are let go with a warning, we&#039;ll see a highly significant difference in citation rate between the genders.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But once someone has been pulled over, it seems unreasonable to more often release women with only a warning.&#8221;</p>
<p>But the probablistic mix of offenses committed by a typical man-who-is-pulled-over may well be quite different than that for women. Assume for simplicity that cars are pulled over for either reckless driving or trivial infractions. Assume further that men commit &#8220;reckless driving&#8221; at three times the rate of women. If nearly all reckless driving cases are cited, while nearly all trivial infraction cases are let go with a warning, we&#8217;ll see a highly significant difference in citation rate between the genders.</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/gender_profilin.html#comment-422291</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Feb 2007 20:36:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/gender-profiling.html#comment-422291</guid>
		<description>Haven&#039;t studies shown that, contrary to stereotype, women are better drivers?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haven&#8217;t studies shown that, contrary to stereotype, women are better drivers?</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/gender_profilin.html#comment-422290</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Feb 2007 19:57:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/02/gender-profiling.html#comment-422290</guid>
		<description>I can suggest two reasons for the greater concern about anti-female bias:

1) Chivalry. It is thought a greater crime to hurt a woman than a man.

2) Politics. There is a well organised lobby group in favour of women (feminism). They will object to anything that is thought to harm women, but will be quieter about, or actively support, anything that appears to benefit women at the expense of men. (I am sure that this group genuinely believes it is in favour of equal treatment, but this is a site about overcoming biases.)

It is therefore politically safer to argue in favour of the woman.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can suggest two reasons for the greater concern about anti-female bias:</p>
<p>1) Chivalry. It is thought a greater crime to hurt a woman than a man.</p>
<p>2) Politics. There is a well organised lobby group in favour of women (feminism). They will object to anything that is thought to harm women, but will be quieter about, or actively support, anything that appears to benefit women at the expense of men. (I am sure that this group genuinely believes it is in favour of equal treatment, but this is a site about overcoming biases.)</p>
<p>It is therefore politically safer to argue in favour of the woman.</p>
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