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	<title>Comments on: Normative Bayesianism and Disagreement</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/normative_bayes.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/normative_bayes.html#comment-423225</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:19:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/normative-bayesianism-and-disagreement.html#comment-423225</guid>
		<description>Nicholas, I hope I will eventually figure out what you mean by &quot;reason  based epistemology.&quot;  You seem to imply that it, in contrast to stark Bayesianism, is not relativist.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicholas, I hope I will eventually figure out what you mean by &#8220;reason  based epistemology.&#8221;  You seem to imply that it, in contrast to stark Bayesianism, is not relativist.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Shackel</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/normative_bayes.html#comment-423224</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Shackel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jan 2007 22:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/normative-bayesianism-and-disagreement.html#comment-423224</guid>
		<description>The reason it’s not simply a terminological issue is precisely because of the criticism, adverted to in Nick B’s (c),  that Bayesians frequently want to make of reason based epistemology (and I agree that it is a significant point to make). But you can’t have it both ways. Either you abjure reason based epistemology altogether, put up with whatever account of rational belief you can manage on that basis, and can advance the criticism as a problem your epistemology avoids, or admit elements of reason based epistemology and accept that the criticism is a problem that you too face. I think the choice is stark here, and you can either be a Normative Bayesian or you can be a reason based epistemologist (some of whom, like me, think that insights from formal methods are important but require carefully thought out application). I might be wrong about this, but I think you two think there’s a position in between. Currently, Normative Bayesianism is a relativist position because there is not a solution to the problem of the priors, so if you want to be a non-relativist Normative Bayesian that problem has to be solved Bayesianly. Of course, Aumann’s and Robin’s papers are interesting steps in that direction, so I’m not saying that the non-relativist Normative Bayesian programme is a degenerating one.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason it’s not simply a terminological issue is precisely because of the criticism, adverted to in Nick B’s (c),  that Bayesians frequently want to make of reason based epistemology (and I agree that it is a significant point to make). But you can’t have it both ways. Either you abjure reason based epistemology altogether, put up with whatever account of rational belief you can manage on that basis, and can advance the criticism as a problem your epistemology avoids, or admit elements of reason based epistemology and accept that the criticism is a problem that you too face. I think the choice is stark here, and you can either be a Normative Bayesian or you can be a reason based epistemologist (some of whom, like me, think that insights from formal methods are important but require carefully thought out application). I might be wrong about this, but I think you two think there’s a position in between. Currently, Normative Bayesianism is a relativist position because there is not a solution to the problem of the priors, so if you want to be a non-relativist Normative Bayesian that problem has to be solved Bayesianly. Of course, Aumann’s and Robin’s papers are interesting steps in that direction, so I’m not saying that the non-relativist Normative Bayesian programme is a degenerating one.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/normative_bayes.html#comment-423223</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jan 2007 21:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/normative-bayesianism-and-disagreement.html#comment-423223</guid>
		<description>Perhaps not surprisingly, all three of Nick B.&#039;s characteristic features of Bayesianism describe me well.  And perhaps I should speak of disagreement as unreasonable, rather than irrational.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps not surprisingly, all three of Nick B.&#8217;s characteristic features of Bayesianism describe me well.  And perhaps I should speak of disagreement as unreasonable, rather than irrational.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Bostrom</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/normative_bayes.html#comment-423222</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Bostrom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jan 2007 20:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/normative-bayesianism-and-disagreement.html#comment-423222</guid>
		<description>I think there are different definitions or understandings of &quot;Bayesianism&quot; floating around in the literature. Only in some of these (which we might call pure subjective Bayesianism) are there no other rationality constraint on belief than coherence and updating rules. (Colin Howson is an even more hardcore Bayesian, refusing even to condone diachronic belief constaints, wishing to claim the remainder as pure logic.) But the term can also be used for the view (which I hold) that there are additional constraints on rational belief other than coherence and Bayesian updating. I sometimes use the term &quot;rational&quot; for beliefs that satisfy at least the formal constraints, and the term &quot;reasonable&quot; for beliefs that also satisfy the additional material constraints. On this usage, a belief could avoid being irrational while still being unreasonable.

On this weaker form of Bayesianism it might be less clear what is distinctive about it and how it is different from &quot;reason-based epistemology&quot;. I don&#039;t have a ready answer for that, and I have to say the question does not interest me hugely since it seems mainly terminological. But maybe we could point to some characteristic features: (a) belief in the fruitfulness of the formal Bayesian framework; (b) belief that prior probabilities are essential and cannot be ignored, e.g. in philosophy of science; (c) belief that the whole enterprise of formulating what it means to &quot;accept&quot; a proposition, and criteria for when we should accept, reject, or suspend judgement about a proposision is creating a lot of problems for itself - the so-called lottery paradox etc. --, many of which can be naturally overcome if we instead focus on credences and assigning degrees of belief (probabilities) to propositions. At least, these three things tend to be believed by people who call themselves Bayesians but seemingly not by many others.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there are different definitions or understandings of &#8220;Bayesianism&#8221; floating around in the literature. Only in some of these (which we might call pure subjective Bayesianism) are there no other rationality constraint on belief than coherence and updating rules. (Colin Howson is an even more hardcore Bayesian, refusing even to condone diachronic belief constaints, wishing to claim the remainder as pure logic.) But the term can also be used for the view (which I hold) that there are additional constraints on rational belief other than coherence and Bayesian updating. I sometimes use the term &#8220;rational&#8221; for beliefs that satisfy at least the formal constraints, and the term &#8220;reasonable&#8221; for beliefs that also satisfy the additional material constraints. On this usage, a belief could avoid being irrational while still being unreasonable.</p>
<p>On this weaker form of Bayesianism it might be less clear what is distinctive about it and how it is different from &#8220;reason-based epistemology&#8221;. I don&#8217;t have a ready answer for that, and I have to say the question does not interest me hugely since it seems mainly terminological. But maybe we could point to some characteristic features: (a) belief in the fruitfulness of the formal Bayesian framework; (b) belief that prior probabilities are essential and cannot be ignored, e.g. in philosophy of science; (c) belief that the whole enterprise of formulating what it means to &#8220;accept&#8221; a proposition, and criteria for when we should accept, reject, or suspend judgement about a proposision is creating a lot of problems for itself &#8211; the so-called lottery paradox etc. &#8211;, many of which can be naturally overcome if we instead focus on credences and assigning degrees of belief (probabilities) to propositions. At least, these three things tend to be believed by people who call themselves Bayesians but seemingly not by many others.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Shackel</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/normative_bayes.html#comment-423221</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Shackel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jan 2007 18:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/normative-bayesianism-and-disagreement.html#comment-423221</guid>
		<description>Nick B: Regarding your other remarks: I agree with the thought that lies behind them and I would see that thought as offering  reasons why we might accept that truths about ideal Bayesian believers should be taken into account when thinking about the rationality of belief for persons. But probably we should have a separate post about the relation of Bayesian believers to persons.

Conditioning on the information about the Priors of other evolved agents is, of course, purely Bayesian. However,  in addition to the idealising assumption (that ideal Bayesian believers get it right) which Normative Bayesianism is entitled to (at least in advancing itself), Robin’s (2) rests on a further assumption that it is *information* about *evolved* agents in a *material world* with *causal processes*, and that amounts to assuming realism,  naturalism and various pieces of methodology from philosophy of science. Of course, I’m not opposed to those assumptions, but their justification steps outside Bayesian rationality.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick B: Regarding your other remarks: I agree with the thought that lies behind them and I would see that thought as offering  reasons why we might accept that truths about ideal Bayesian believers should be taken into account when thinking about the rationality of belief for persons. But probably we should have a separate post about the relation of Bayesian believers to persons.</p>
<p>Conditioning on the information about the Priors of other evolved agents is, of course, purely Bayesian. However,  in addition to the idealising assumption (that ideal Bayesian believers get it right) which Normative Bayesianism is entitled to (at least in advancing itself), Robin’s (2) rests on a further assumption that it is *information* about *evolved* agents in a *material world* with *causal processes*, and that amounts to assuming realism,  naturalism and various pieces of methodology from philosophy of science. Of course, I’m not opposed to those assumptions, but their justification steps outside Bayesian rationality.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Shackel</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/normative_bayes.html#comment-423220</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Shackel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jan 2007 18:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/normative-bayesianism-and-disagreement.html#comment-423220</guid>
		<description>Robin: I&#039;m not taking a position, just clarifying what distinctive positions there are to take. I don&#039;t think Normative Bayesianism is true, but I think it&#039;s interesting to press it as far as we can to find out just what it can and cannot model of rationality. Hence my interest in your results. However, pressing it as far as we can requires not muddling it up with other positions. But as I said, the problems we are interested are probably not exactly the same.

Example of foundational metaphysical question involving a kind of origin dispute: idealism v realism. Idealism says that there is no material world, there are only minds and mental states. In that case the origin of our Priors could not be evolution, since there are no bodies to evolve.

James: to answer another aspect of your question: also distinguish the ideal Bayesian believers of Aumann&#039;s and Robin&#039;s models from actual people. Aumann gives the story of Bayesian believers repeatedly exchanging their credence in a proposition, updating their credence in the light of their knowledge of the others credence, and then once again exchanging their updated credence in the proposition, and so on. The reiterated utterances and updatings lead to their credences converging. I don&#039;t know if it would require infinite steps to converge--I suspect the proof would be a limit argument, in which case it would-- but they are ideal Bayesian believers and this would be an unobjectionable idealisation.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin: I&#8217;m not taking a position, just clarifying what distinctive positions there are to take. I don&#8217;t think Normative Bayesianism is true, but I think it&#8217;s interesting to press it as far as we can to find out just what it can and cannot model of rationality. Hence my interest in your results. However, pressing it as far as we can requires not muddling it up with other positions. But as I said, the problems we are interested are probably not exactly the same.</p>
<p>Example of foundational metaphysical question involving a kind of origin dispute: idealism v realism. Idealism says that there is no material world, there are only minds and mental states. In that case the origin of our Priors could not be evolution, since there are no bodies to evolve.</p>
<p>James: to answer another aspect of your question: also distinguish the ideal Bayesian believers of Aumann&#8217;s and Robin&#8217;s models from actual people. Aumann gives the story of Bayesian believers repeatedly exchanging their credence in a proposition, updating their credence in the light of their knowledge of the others credence, and then once again exchanging their updated credence in the proposition, and so on. The reiterated utterances and updatings lead to their credences converging. I don&#8217;t know if it would require infinite steps to converge&#8211;I suspect the proof would be a limit argument, in which case it would&#8211; but they are ideal Bayesian believers and this would be an unobjectionable idealisation.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/normative_bayes.html#comment-423219</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jan 2007 12:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/normative-bayesianism-and-disagreement.html#comment-423219</guid>
		<description>James, one can have a normative standard that one tries to live up to, even if one doesn&#039;t have an exact algorithm that guarantees zero deviation from the standard.  Anytime you can identify a systematic deviation between your belief and the normative standard, you try to change your beliefs to reduce that deviation.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, one can have a normative standard that one tries to live up to, even if one doesn&#8217;t have an exact algorithm that guarantees zero deviation from the standard.  Anytime you can identify a systematic deviation between your belief and the normative standard, you try to change your beliefs to reduce that deviation.</p>
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		<title>By: James Annan</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/normative_bayes.html#comment-423218</link>
		<dc:creator>James Annan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jan 2007 07:32:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/normative-bayesianism-and-disagreement.html#comment-423218</guid>
		<description>This seems as good a place as any to continue with what I was trying to pursue...

&quot;Unless Bayesians think the causal process that produced their prior was special, they will have common priors&quot;

How will they construct this common prior? Without a constructive method, surely they will more likely accept that they have different priors and get on with life, even if differing priors means that they cannot be &quot;rational&quot; by your definition.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This seems as good a place as any to continue with what I was trying to pursue&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;Unless Bayesians think the causal process that produced their prior was special, they will have common priors&#8221;</p>
<p>How will they construct this common prior? Without a constructive method, surely they will more likely accept that they have different priors and get on with life, even if differing priors means that they cannot be &#8220;rational&#8221; by your definition.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/normative_bayes.html#comment-423217</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jan 2007 03:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/normative-bayesianism-and-disagreement.html#comment-423217</guid>
		<description>Nicholas, you say &quot;Bayesianism&quot; is &quot;the entirety of the rationality of belief is modeled by probability theory.&quot;  I can endorse the position that most rationality constraints are *expressible* in terms of probability theory, but not the position you seem to be taking, that all rationality constraints *reduce* to probability theory.  I look forward to hearing you explain how &quot;foundational metaphysical questions are precisely a kind of origin dispute.&quot;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicholas, you say &#8220;Bayesianism&#8221; is &#8220;the entirety of the rationality of belief is modeled by probability theory.&#8221;  I can endorse the position that most rationality constraints are *expressible* in terms of probability theory, but not the position you seem to be taking, that all rationality constraints *reduce* to probability theory.  I look forward to hearing you explain how &#8220;foundational metaphysical questions are precisely a kind of origin dispute.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Shackel</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/normative_bayes.html#comment-423216</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Shackel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jan 2007 02:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/normative-bayesianism-and-disagreement.html#comment-423216</guid>
		<description>Nick B: For your first suggestion, I don’t know. Do the Bayesians in Aumann’s original paper have common knowledge of their ideal Bayesian believerness, or just common knowledge of the posterior proposition and each know or commonly know that they had common priors? I should have said Bayesianly rational Priors in MBA, for the reasons mentioned in  my reply to Robin. I think what I say there explains why, whilst I agree with what you say in your second point, I don’t think such rational principles count as part of Normative Bayesianism. Of course, the picture I gave of an ideal Bayesian believer is something of an approximation just because the third clause is frequently significantly modified by Bayesians (e.g. Jeffrey conditionalisation as opposed to pure Bayes theorem), but the loose description, that the entirety of the rationality of belief is to be modelled in some way or another by probability theory, captures what I take to be distinctive about Bayesian epistemology. Otherwise, the problem of old knowledge for hypothesis confirmation, for example, needn’t be a problem. I agree with your final paragraph and a number of points you make along the way. Might discuss them more tomorrow.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick B: For your first suggestion, I don’t know. Do the Bayesians in Aumann’s original paper have common knowledge of their ideal Bayesian believerness, or just common knowledge of the posterior proposition and each know or commonly know that they had common priors? I should have said Bayesianly rational Priors in MBA, for the reasons mentioned in  my reply to Robin. I think what I say there explains why, whilst I agree with what you say in your second point, I don’t think such rational principles count as part of Normative Bayesianism. Of course, the picture I gave of an ideal Bayesian believer is something of an approximation just because the third clause is frequently significantly modified by Bayesians (e.g. Jeffrey conditionalisation as opposed to pure Bayes theorem), but the loose description, that the entirety of the rationality of belief is to be modelled in some way or another by probability theory, captures what I take to be distinctive about Bayesian epistemology. Otherwise, the problem of old knowledge for hypothesis confirmation, for example, needn’t be a problem. I agree with your final paragraph and a number of points you make along the way. Might discuss them more tomorrow.</p>
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