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	<title>Comments on: Do Helping Professions Help More?</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/do_helping_prof.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Deus Ex Macchiato &#187; Not to break the mood but&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/do_helping_prof.html#comment-433559</link>
		<dc:creator>Deus Ex Macchiato &#187; Not to break the mood but&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 09:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/do-helping-professions-help-more.html#comment-433559</guid>
		<description>[...] favourite post of the week is Do Helping Professions Help? from the often readable Overcoming Bias. I like it because it asks a hard question about the system [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] favourite post of the week is Do Helping Professions Help? from the often readable Overcoming Bias. I like it because it asks a hard question about the system [...]</p>
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		<title>By: retired urologist</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/do_helping_prof.html#comment-423871</link>
		<dc:creator>retired urologist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:45:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/do-helping-professions-help-more.html#comment-423871</guid>
		<description>Regarding doctors, in my experience, the &quot;helping&quot; motivation is strongest at the pre-med level, present but less strong in med school, and usually absent by the end of residency. There seems to be an inverse relationship between &quot;desire to help&quot; and &quot;number of patients seen&quot;. Another consideration is that during this time, the individual in question changes from a teen-ager to a person frequently in the mid-thirties, reminiscent of the quote often inaccurately attributed to Churchill regarding age, liberals, and conservatives. Yes, there are many practicing doctors who volunteer their time to clinics, but it is a small percentage, and it is difficult to say whether the motivation is &quot;helping&quot; or &quot;status&quot; or &quot;guilt assuagement&quot; or &quot;marketing&quot; or &quot;control&quot; in each case.

Most of my colleagues chose a &lt;a href=&quot;http://drchip.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/medicine-as-a-guild/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;guild&lt;/a&gt; offering exclusive (but limited) benefits and guaranteed economic survival, the same as all successful guilds. The remuneration in that guild seldom is set by the doctor, and only so in practices dealing with purely elective and/or cosmetic concerns. When I was at the top of my surgical game, my per-procedure fee scale was one fourth what it was when I began practice for Medicare patients (65 and over, or disabled), and one half for privately insured patients. Free market concepts apparently do not apply, as even the wealthiest patients would not pay more for better service.

It is an obvious source of jealousy that the average doctor has a higher income and a better public image than the average economist, regardless of the actual value of the services. Hanson may be consoled that in medicine, like economics, it is not necessarily the &quot;best and brightest&quot; who are compensated the most.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding doctors, in my experience, the &#8220;helping&#8221; motivation is strongest at the pre-med level, present but less strong in med school, and usually absent by the end of residency. There seems to be an inverse relationship between &#8220;desire to help&#8221; and &#8220;number of patients seen&#8221;. Another consideration is that during this time, the individual in question changes from a teen-ager to a person frequently in the mid-thirties, reminiscent of the quote often inaccurately attributed to Churchill regarding age, liberals, and conservatives. Yes, there are many practicing doctors who volunteer their time to clinics, but it is a small percentage, and it is difficult to say whether the motivation is &#8220;helping&#8221; or &#8220;status&#8221; or &#8220;guilt assuagement&#8221; or &#8220;marketing&#8221; or &#8220;control&#8221; in each case.</p>
<p>Most of my colleagues chose a <a href="http://drchip.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/medicine-as-a-guild/" rel="nofollow">guild</a> offering exclusive (but limited) benefits and guaranteed economic survival, the same as all successful guilds. The remuneration in that guild seldom is set by the doctor, and only so in practices dealing with purely elective and/or cosmetic concerns. When I was at the top of my surgical game, my per-procedure fee scale was one fourth what it was when I began practice for Medicare patients (65 and over, or disabled), and one half for privately insured patients. Free market concepts apparently do not apply, as even the wealthiest patients would not pay more for better service.</p>
<p>It is an obvious source of jealousy that the average doctor has a higher income and a better public image than the average economist, regardless of the actual value of the services. Hanson may be consoled that in medicine, like economics, it is not necessarily the &#8220;best and brightest&#8221; who are compensated the most.</p>
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		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/do_helping_prof.html#comment-423870</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 03:40:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/do-helping-professions-help-more.html#comment-423870</guid>
		<description>&quot;If so, you are helping some by hurting others.  Shame on you.&quot;

Why is the latter sentence in a Robin Hanson overcoming bias piece? It seems to me you&#039;re riding widespread bias here, not making it transparent. Shame on you Robin Hanson, for hurting my persistence odds by helping yourself to the enjoyment of a little snark. :_^(
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If so, you are helping some by hurting others.  Shame on you.&#8221;</p>
<p>Why is the latter sentence in a Robin Hanson overcoming bias piece? It seems to me you&#8217;re riding widespread bias here, not making it transparent. Shame on you Robin Hanson, for hurting my persistence odds by helping yourself to the enjoyment of a little snark. :_^(</p>
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		<title>By: Carol</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/do_helping_prof.html#comment-423869</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 03:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/do-helping-professions-help-more.html#comment-423869</guid>
		<description>Clearly, you are unflappable and nothing anyone says (whether it&#039;s more logical or not) will change your opinion or your argument.

As someone working toward a CASAC degree in the &quot;helping profession&quot; I&#039;d like to comment.

I agree that the helping profession is a more direct, face to face interaction. We get to see the change we make in the world in person, as we work with people day to day.

I don&#039;t think asserting the desire to help people is a bad thing. Perhaps it is egotistical to proclaim it from the rooftops, but the sentiment behind it is more altruistic in the end. I think it&#039;s fair to say that a lot of people get into the helping profession to help people, to make a difference in the world one person at a time (particularly those at the more shallow end of the helping pool: social services workers, substance abuse counselors, etc.). We don&#039;t get paid much, but the job is rewarding.

Other professions may provide necessary services, and may in fact change lives and help people, but it&#039;s far less measurable. You can say a movie changed your life, or a particularly nice waiter made your day. These may help a person once in awhile, but helping professionals do it every day; it&#039;s the driving intention of the profession to help.

Living in a society bent on the value of a dollar takes the focus off the importance of personal relationships; the helping profession puts the focus back on to them.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clearly, you are unflappable and nothing anyone says (whether it&#8217;s more logical or not) will change your opinion or your argument.</p>
<p>As someone working toward a CASAC degree in the &#8220;helping profession&#8221; I&#8217;d like to comment.</p>
<p>I agree that the helping profession is a more direct, face to face interaction. We get to see the change we make in the world in person, as we work with people day to day.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think asserting the desire to help people is a bad thing. Perhaps it is egotistical to proclaim it from the rooftops, but the sentiment behind it is more altruistic in the end. I think it&#8217;s fair to say that a lot of people get into the helping profession to help people, to make a difference in the world one person at a time (particularly those at the more shallow end of the helping pool: social services workers, substance abuse counselors, etc.). We don&#8217;t get paid much, but the job is rewarding.</p>
<p>Other professions may provide necessary services, and may in fact change lives and help people, but it&#8217;s far less measurable. You can say a movie changed your life, or a particularly nice waiter made your day. These may help a person once in awhile, but helping professionals do it every day; it&#8217;s the driving intention of the profession to help.</p>
<p>Living in a society bent on the value of a dollar takes the focus off the importance of personal relationships; the helping profession puts the focus back on to them.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/do_helping_prof.html#comment-423868</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 01:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/do-helping-professions-help-more.html#comment-423868</guid>
		<description>Tirta, even if we do analysis with our best available tools, we expect our descendants will have better tools.  I don&#039;t yet see how my analysis is invalidated by the fact that people have emotions, but I will leave uncertainty in my conclusions to account for all possible ways future analysis might show current analysis to be naive.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tirta, even if we do analysis with our best available tools, we expect our descendants will have better tools.  I don&#8217;t yet see how my analysis is invalidated by the fact that people have emotions, but I will leave uncertainty in my conclusions to account for all possible ways future analysis might show current analysis to be naive.</p>
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		<title>By: tirta</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/do_helping_prof.html#comment-423867</link>
		<dc:creator>tirta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 01:07:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/do-helping-professions-help-more.html#comment-423867</guid>
		<description>i&#039;m not making that claim, robin, for &#039;help&#039; to me is perhaps as problematic as it is for you. i only claimed that people seem to perceive medical help as more helpful than other kinds of help, because people are less rational when being sick (or perhaps because they do value health above all else, i&#039;m not sure). yet i have to admit that i&#039;m not aware of any direct psychological study showing this phenomenon empirically -- although i strongly suspect that one would find such effect. i&#039;ll let you know when i encounter one, or a similar one.

i agree that the question is &#039;how&#039;. but the fact that there is still a lack of ways in which to factor those cognitive-affective variables -- which existence you seem to agree on -- should not be taken as a green light for a cold, rational analysis to go through unchecked.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i&#8217;m not making that claim, robin, for &#8216;help&#8217; to me is perhaps as problematic as it is for you. i only claimed that people seem to perceive medical help as more helpful than other kinds of help, because people are less rational when being sick (or perhaps because they do value health above all else, i&#8217;m not sure). yet i have to admit that i&#8217;m not aware of any direct psychological study showing this phenomenon empirically &#8212; although i strongly suspect that one would find such effect. i&#8217;ll let you know when i encounter one, or a similar one.</p>
<p>i agree that the question is &#8216;how&#8217;. but the fact that there is still a lack of ways in which to factor those cognitive-affective variables &#8212; which existence you seem to agree on &#8212; should not be taken as a green light for a cold, rational analysis to go through unchecked.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/do_helping_prof.html#comment-423866</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 00:36:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/do-helping-professions-help-more.html#comment-423866</guid>
		<description>Tirta, the question is *how*, if at all, to factor in considerations of emotional bias and being sick.  You seem to claim that helping people with sickness is &quot;more&quot; help than helping them with other issues.  What is the basis for this claim?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tirta, the question is *how*, if at all, to factor in considerations of emotional bias and being sick.  You seem to claim that helping people with sickness is &#8220;more&#8221; help than helping them with other issues.  What is the basis for this claim?</p>
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		<title>By: tirta</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/do_helping_prof.html#comment-423865</link>
		<dc:creator>tirta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 23:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/do-helping-professions-help-more.html#comment-423865</guid>
		<description>robin,

didn&#039;t you imply that in your argument? i guess i have a problem in seeing how your analysis can be applied, and in which world if not this one. i agree that by participating in a society we do help each other, and that your analysis has its own validity. but taking this too far -- without factoring in personal interaction, emotional bias, and the condition of being sick -- wouldn&#039;t that be absurd, given the current knowledge of how our mental faculties work?

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>robin,</p>
<p>didn&#8217;t you imply that in your argument? i guess i have a problem in seeing how your analysis can be applied, and in which world if not this one. i agree that by participating in a society we do help each other, and that your analysis has its own validity. but taking this too far &#8212; without factoring in personal interaction, emotional bias, and the condition of being sick &#8212; wouldn&#8217;t that be absurd, given the current knowledge of how our mental faculties work?</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/do_helping_prof.html#comment-423864</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/do-helping-professions-help-more.html#comment-423864</guid>
		<description>Tirta, usually we economists are accused of claiming there is value in any product any fool is tricked into buying.  But here you accuse us of not accepting at face value the fact that patients often think they are being helped more.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tirta, usually we economists are accused of claiming there is value in any product any fool is tricked into buying.  But here you accuse us of not accepting at face value the fact that patients often think they are being helped more.</p>
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		<title>By: tirta</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/do_helping_prof.html#comment-423863</link>
		<dc:creator>tirta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/do-helping-professions-help-more.html#comment-423863</guid>
		<description>robin,

doctors help more than other professions simply because their consumers (patients) subjectively think so. when you&#039;re sick and at your weakest, all cognitive and emotional biases come into play, so anyone with normal mental faculties would have the tendency to value medical help more than any other help in their daily lives. i thought economists these days agree that even healthy people aren&#039;t as rational as economics would like them to be, let alone when sick. only rational economists and robots can think about the six arguments you made when seeing their doctors. economists only, i should say, for robots don&#039;t get sick.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>robin,</p>
<p>doctors help more than other professions simply because their consumers (patients) subjectively think so. when you&#8217;re sick and at your weakest, all cognitive and emotional biases come into play, so anyone with normal mental faculties would have the tendency to value medical help more than any other help in their daily lives. i thought economists these days agree that even healthy people aren&#8217;t as rational as economics would like them to be, let alone when sick. only rational economists and robots can think about the six arguments you made when seeing their doctors. economists only, i should say, for robots don&#8217;t get sick.</p>
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