<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Agreeing to Agree</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/agreeing_to_agr.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/agreeing_to_agr.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 01:52:31 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ten Things You Should Learn From LessWrong.com &#124; The Garden of Princess Aileen 心灵的驿站</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/agreeing_to_agr.html#comment-601024</link>
		<dc:creator>Ten Things You Should Learn From LessWrong.com &#124; The Garden of Princess Aileen 心灵的驿站</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Dec 2011 11:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/agreeing-to-agree.html#comment-601024</guid>
		<description>[...] Rational People Can&#8217;t Agree to Disagree.If two rational people initially disagree then they should each use the fact of this disagreement [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Rational People Can&rsquo;t Agree to Disagree.If two rational people initially disagree then they should each use the fact of this disagreement [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ten Things You Should Learn From LessWrong.com &#124; Brian Brown&#039;s Official Website</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/agreeing_to_agr.html#comment-487738</link>
		<dc:creator>Ten Things You Should Learn From LessWrong.com &#124; Brian Brown&#039;s Official Website</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 17:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/agreeing-to-agree.html#comment-487738</guid>
		<description>[...] Rational People Can&#8217;t Agree to Disagree.If two rational people initially disagree then they should each use the fact of this disagreement [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Rational People Can&rsquo;t Agree to Disagree.If two rational people initially disagree then they should each use the fact of this disagreement [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Theories of the firm - Economics -</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/agreeing_to_agr.html#comment-457463</link>
		<dc:creator>Theories of the firm - Economics -</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Oct 2010 12:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/agreeing-to-agree.html#comment-457463</guid>
		<description>[...] aren&#039;t about reduced transaction costs, says Mr van den Steen:Instead his model starts with the Aumann&#160;model of disagreement and he suggests that control rights in the firm follow from a (figurative)&#160;auction over who [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] aren&#39;t about reduced transaction costs, says Mr van den Steen:Instead his model starts with the Aumann&nbsp;model of disagreement and he suggests that control rights in the firm follow from a (figurative)&nbsp;auction over who [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Phil Goetz</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/agreeing_to_agr.html#comment-447541</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Goetz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 May 2010 19:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/agreeing-to-agree.html#comment-447541</guid>
		<description>The theorem is not normative.  Agreeing to agree may be a logical result of interaction between perfect Bayesian agents; but my simulation indicates that doing this decreases expected correctness.

I also dispute that the theorem says what Aumann claimed it says, for two reasons.

First, it requires agents to know each others&#039; partition functions.  This is laughably impossible in the real world.

Second, I believe that Aumann&#039;s attempt to justify saying that &quot;The meet at w of the partitions of X and Y is a subset of event E&quot; means the same as the English phrase &quot;X knows that Y knows event E&quot; means, is incorrect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The theorem is not normative.  Agreeing to agree may be a logical result of interaction between perfect Bayesian agents; but my simulation indicates that doing this decreases expected correctness.</p>
<p>I also dispute that the theorem says what Aumann claimed it says, for two reasons.</p>
<p>First, it requires agents to know each others&#8217; partition functions.  This is laughably impossible in the real world.</p>
<p>Second, I believe that Aumann&#8217;s attempt to justify saying that &#8220;The meet at w of the partitions of X and Y is a subset of event E&#8221; means the same as the English phrase &#8220;X knows that Y knows event E&#8221; means, is incorrect.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: James Dama</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/agreeing_to_agr.html#comment-423938</link>
		<dc:creator>James Dama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/agreeing-to-agree.html#comment-423938</guid>
		<description>Though it may be impossible for mutually respectful rational agents to disagree, that inevitability necessitates a further exploration of the consequences of knowledge. In a world in which factual knowledge can cause pleasure and pain (for instance, the depression that theodicy addresses) and in which factual knowledge can frequently prove to have near-zero marginal utility, this result could be enough to give limited irrationality a positive marginal utility or enough to rationalize avoidance of rational debate. This result answers questions about why people avoid rational argument as much as it brings up questions about why people don&#039;t agree more often.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though it may be impossible for mutually respectful rational agents to disagree, that inevitability necessitates a further exploration of the consequences of knowledge. In a world in which factual knowledge can cause pleasure and pain (for instance, the depression that theodicy addresses) and in which factual knowledge can frequently prove to have near-zero marginal utility, this result could be enough to give limited irrationality a positive marginal utility or enough to rationalize avoidance of rational debate. This result answers questions about why people avoid rational argument as much as it brings up questions about why people don&#8217;t agree more often.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/agreeing_to_agr.html#comment-423937</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jan 2007 18:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/agreeing-to-agree.html#comment-423937</guid>
		<description>Greg, the theory you like is for most people a better theory of other people than of themselves.  People don&#039;t just want to think of their beliefs as convenient comfortable furniture of their minds; they also want to think of them as their best estimates of reality.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg, the theory you like is for most people a better theory of other people than of themselves.  People don&#8217;t just want to think of their beliefs as convenient comfortable furniture of their minds; they also want to think of them as their best estimates of reality.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Greg Marsh</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/agreeing_to_agr.html#comment-423936</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Marsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jan 2007 16:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/agreeing-to-agree.html#comment-423936</guid>
		<description>A good friend of mine -- and a world-class debater to boot -- once said in frustration after a long discussion about politics, &quot;we are both reasonable people; we are both intelligent; why is it that we can&#039;t agree about these things? Surely it should just be a matter of exploring our assumptions fully.&quot;

I was stymied at the time, but have searched for a satisfactory explanation ever since. I hadn&#039;t come across Aumann at the time, but am satisfied to learn that this is a well-explored problem at a formal level.

Suffice to say, the best explanation I&#039;ve since come across was characterised by George Lakoff -- a sometime student of Chomsky&#039;s -- in his book &#039;Moral Politics&#039; (and more accessibly in his recent short political book, &#039;Don&#039;t Think of an Elephant&#039;). He shares with Chomsky a journey from linguistics to politics. Loosely, his analysis is that someone&#039;s &#039;political persuasion&#039; is not just a set of postulates and logical inferences, but a Weltanschauung; Lakoff uses the term &#039;deep metaphor&#039;, though I don&#039;t know if that is originally his coinage.

His case is fairly persuasive, and can also be expressed in cost/benefit evolutionary psychology terms: where the brain is held to be a complex adaptive system thoroughly remodelling a worldview in the light of each new piece of evidence is, however &#039;rational&#039;, only possible if it is not unreasonably expensive. A radical re-evaluation would typically be unacceptably costly, involving as it would a period of tumultuous dissonance, with the potential for dangerous even chaotic disequilibrium states in the ensuing &#039;logic cascades&#039; that would lead to a period of serious cognitive impairment. Sanity might be at risk, perhaps permanently. The brain, being resilient, avoids this danger, and so applies limits to its receptiveness for even the most compelling controverting evidence. We tolerate some degree of discrepancy where the cost of accommodation exceeds the cost of dissonance.

Instead, picture the brain in a condition of constant unresolved inconsistency. Much like a lived-in house, where the latest interior design whimsy may affect one or two rooms, but the whole is never quite aligned. It&#039;s just too expensive to whip out the Victorian fireplace just because minimalism is &#039;in&#039; this season -- and besides, we might miss it.

(How else, incidentally, can you begin to explain the tenacity of latent religious beliefs in otherwise committed Dawkins-readers?)

The underlying error, here, if there is one, is in applying the word &#039;rational&#039; to humans (implied by the term &#039;debaters&#039; in your first paragraph, Hal). Rationality --  viz. the pursuit of consistency and deductive inference -- might be said to be a process, or even a goal, but it can&#039;t ever be an equilibrium state of a living brain. Brains as systems are just far too complex for that, the selection pressures on their operations too dynamic, the tumult perpetual.

Tremendous blog, by the way.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good friend of mine &#8212; and a world-class debater to boot &#8212; once said in frustration after a long discussion about politics, &#8220;we are both reasonable people; we are both intelligent; why is it that we can&#8217;t agree about these things? Surely it should just be a matter of exploring our assumptions fully.&#8221;</p>
<p>I was stymied at the time, but have searched for a satisfactory explanation ever since. I hadn&#8217;t come across Aumann at the time, but am satisfied to learn that this is a well-explored problem at a formal level.</p>
<p>Suffice to say, the best explanation I&#8217;ve since come across was characterised by George Lakoff &#8212; a sometime student of Chomsky&#8217;s &#8212; in his book &#8216;Moral Politics&#8217; (and more accessibly in his recent short political book, &#8216;Don&#8217;t Think of an Elephant&#8217;). He shares with Chomsky a journey from linguistics to politics. Loosely, his analysis is that someone&#8217;s &#8216;political persuasion&#8217; is not just a set of postulates and logical inferences, but a Weltanschauung; Lakoff uses the term &#8216;deep metaphor&#8217;, though I don&#8217;t know if that is originally his coinage.</p>
<p>His case is fairly persuasive, and can also be expressed in cost/benefit evolutionary psychology terms: where the brain is held to be a complex adaptive system thoroughly remodelling a worldview in the light of each new piece of evidence is, however &#8216;rational&#8217;, only possible if it is not unreasonably expensive. A radical re-evaluation would typically be unacceptably costly, involving as it would a period of tumultuous dissonance, with the potential for dangerous even chaotic disequilibrium states in the ensuing &#8216;logic cascades&#8217; that would lead to a period of serious cognitive impairment. Sanity might be at risk, perhaps permanently. The brain, being resilient, avoids this danger, and so applies limits to its receptiveness for even the most compelling controverting evidence. We tolerate some degree of discrepancy where the cost of accommodation exceeds the cost of dissonance.</p>
<p>Instead, picture the brain in a condition of constant unresolved inconsistency. Much like a lived-in house, where the latest interior design whimsy may affect one or two rooms, but the whole is never quite aligned. It&#8217;s just too expensive to whip out the Victorian fireplace just because minimalism is &#8216;in&#8217; this season &#8212; and besides, we might miss it.</p>
<p>(How else, incidentally, can you begin to explain the tenacity of latent religious beliefs in otherwise committed Dawkins-readers?)</p>
<p>The underlying error, here, if there is one, is in applying the word &#8216;rational&#8217; to humans (implied by the term &#8216;debaters&#8217; in your first paragraph, Hal). Rationality &#8212;  viz. the pursuit of consistency and deductive inference &#8212; might be said to be a process, or even a goal, but it can&#8217;t ever be an equilibrium state of a living brain. Brains as systems are just far too complex for that, the selection pressures on their operations too dynamic, the tumult perpetual.</p>
<p>Tremendous blog, by the way.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: eric</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/agreeing_to_agr.html#comment-423935</link>
		<dc:creator>eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Dec 2006 16:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/agreeing-to-agree.html#comment-423935</guid>
		<description>OK, how about this.  Nietzsche said &#039;no one lies like the indignant&#039;, by which he captures the fact that people often excuse, ignore, or downright lie about data contrary to their subjective &#039;bigger picture&#039;.  So even Milton Friedman (God bless) in his Free to Choose video series (now free on the internet!) would not answer all counter arguments to school vouchers (&#039;you leave public schools with all those kicked out of private schools&#039;), or state interventions (some successful Asian Tigers had intrusive government sectors).  He didn&#039;t have an answer to these questions but didn&#039;t think these falsified his views, even though I&#039;m sure his intellectual opponents did.

Propositions are, like Paul Feyerabend argued, ultimately a confluence of myriad sources hardly amenable to pure logic.  So we must choose to weight supporting and confounding data subjectively, there is no totally objective way.  Humans have a finite life, and must act before sufficient data is available, and in any case there&#039;s the logical issue with induction in a complex non-linear adaptive systems such as societies.  As Richard Feynman noted, we develop theories, see how the implications of these theories fit the data, looking for prediction, generality and parsimony (even beauty), all judged relative to existing theory--quite different than a search for Truth.

Humans are not merely discovering the truth, they are competing for it via different policy platforms, academic papers, and business models.  At some level most arguments become based on assumptions that are hardly provable, such as whether or not people will work more efficiently with lower marginal tax rates, or whether the costs of crime prevention in terms of civil liberties is worth the costs of crime prevented. A worldview, or theory, is both a lens and a filter: it amplifies and excludes various observations.  But because the alternative is to have no theory, in which the world is random, that&#039;s the best we can do.  Evolution makes us predisposed to develop theories and act on them, which makes us treat data points differently.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, how about this.  Nietzsche said &#8216;no one lies like the indignant&#8217;, by which he captures the fact that people often excuse, ignore, or downright lie about data contrary to their subjective &#8216;bigger picture&#8217;.  So even Milton Friedman (God bless) in his Free to Choose video series (now free on the internet!) would not answer all counter arguments to school vouchers (&#8216;you leave public schools with all those kicked out of private schools&#8217;), or state interventions (some successful Asian Tigers had intrusive government sectors).  He didn&#8217;t have an answer to these questions but didn&#8217;t think these falsified his views, even though I&#8217;m sure his intellectual opponents did.</p>
<p>Propositions are, like Paul Feyerabend argued, ultimately a confluence of myriad sources hardly amenable to pure logic.  So we must choose to weight supporting and confounding data subjectively, there is no totally objective way.  Humans have a finite life, and must act before sufficient data is available, and in any case there&#8217;s the logical issue with induction in a complex non-linear adaptive systems such as societies.  As Richard Feynman noted, we develop theories, see how the implications of these theories fit the data, looking for prediction, generality and parsimony (even beauty), all judged relative to existing theory&#8211;quite different than a search for Truth.</p>
<p>Humans are not merely discovering the truth, they are competing for it via different policy platforms, academic papers, and business models.  At some level most arguments become based on assumptions that are hardly provable, such as whether or not people will work more efficiently with lower marginal tax rates, or whether the costs of crime prevention in terms of civil liberties is worth the costs of crime prevented. A worldview, or theory, is both a lens and a filter: it amplifies and excludes various observations.  But because the alternative is to have no theory, in which the world is random, that&#8217;s the best we can do.  Evolution makes us predisposed to develop theories and act on them, which makes us treat data points differently.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hal Finney</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/agreeing_to_agr.html#comment-423934</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal Finney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Dec 2006 06:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/agreeing-to-agree.html#comment-423934</guid>
		<description>Eric - That is an interesting phenomenon - Socrates was good at inducing fact-free learning back in the day. However if people recognize this limitation in their thinking, that they don&#039;t necessarily know all the implications of the facts available to them, they should be more open to surprising statements by others. People should recognize the many gaps in their own understanding and accept that others will have their own information and interpretations that may be useful and relevant. So I don&#039;t see this as giving grounds for the strong stubbornness that is Agreeing to Disagree.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric &#8211; That is an interesting phenomenon &#8211; Socrates was good at inducing fact-free learning back in the day. However if people recognize this limitation in their thinking, that they don&#8217;t necessarily know all the implications of the facts available to them, they should be more open to surprising statements by others. People should recognize the many gaps in their own understanding and accept that others will have their own information and interpretations that may be useful and relevant. So I don&#8217;t see this as giving grounds for the strong stubbornness that is Agreeing to Disagree.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: eric</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/agreeing_to_agr.html#comment-423933</link>
		<dc:creator>eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Dec 2006 03:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/12/agreeing-to-agree.html#comment-423933</guid>
		<description>I think the paper Fact-Free Learning explains Agreeing to Disagree pretty well (AER, Dec 2005).  The idea is that most people disagree on &#039;facts&#039; that are really statements about relations between datapoints.  As there are an infinite number of relations, you can&#039;t expect to know them all even if you know all the basic data points.  So everyone knows only a different subset of the relations, which gives them different &#039;facts&#039;.


http://ideas.repec.org/a/aea/aecrev/v95y2005i5p1355-1368.html
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the paper Fact-Free Learning explains Agreeing to Disagree pretty well (AER, Dec 2005).  The idea is that most people disagree on &#8216;facts&#8217; that are really statements about relations between datapoints.  As there are an infinite number of relations, you can&#8217;t expect to know them all even if you know all the basic data points.  So everyone knows only a different subset of the relations, which gives them different &#8216;facts&#8217;.</p>
<p><a href="http://ideas.repec.org/a/aea/aecrev/v95y2005i5p1355-1368.html" rel="nofollow">http://ideas.repec.org/a/aea/aecrev/v95y2005i5p1355-1368.html</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Page Caching using disk (enhanced)
Database Caching using disk
Object Caching 438/455 objects using disk
Content Delivery Network via Amazon Web Services: S3: overcomingbias-assets.s3.amazonaws.com

Served from: www.overcomingbias.com @ 2012-02-11 21:18:28 -->
