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	<title>Comments on: A 1990 Corporate Prediction Market</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/first_known_bus.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/first_known_bus.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Chris Hibbert</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/first_known_bus.html#comment-424438</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Hibbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:50:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/a-1990-corporate-prediction-market.html#comment-424438</guid>
		<description>Insiders were paying attention to software development progress and deliveries to customers (we had about a handful of beta customers in the last year, before Xanadu was shut down when Autodesk reorganized.)  None of the active participants had much view into events at the parent company.  (I was an employee, even though my name doesn&#039;t appear under the link to employees and consultants.)

Another lesson is that it&#039;s crucial to have multiple points of view.  All the participants in that particular market were software developers.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Insiders were paying attention to software development progress and deliveries to customers (we had about a handful of beta customers in the last year, before Xanadu was shut down when Autodesk reorganized.)  None of the active participants had much view into events at the parent company.  (I was an employee, even though my name doesn&#8217;t appear under the link to employees and consultants.)</p>
<p>Another lesson is that it&#8217;s crucial to have multiple points of view.  All the participants in that particular market were software developers.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/first_known_bus.html#comment-424437</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 10:29:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/a-1990-corporate-prediction-market.html#comment-424437</guid>
		<description>Hal, this market was not anonymous, which may indeed have been a mistake.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hal, this market was not anonymous, which may indeed have been a mistake.</p>
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		<title>By: Hal Finney</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/first_known_bus.html#comment-424436</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal Finney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 06:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/a-1990-corporate-prediction-market.html#comment-424436</guid>
		<description>Seems like this is a case where anonymity would be important, otherwise employees might be seen as disloyal if they predicted the product would fail. How was that handled at Xanadu?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems like this is a case where anonymity would be important, otherwise employees might be seen as disloyal if they predicted the product would fail. How was that handled at Xanadu?</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/first_known_bus.html#comment-424435</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 01:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/a-1990-corporate-prediction-market.html#comment-424435</guid>
		<description>As usual, project insiders acted very confident of success, and those of us more on the periphery expressed more doubts.  The market price moderated the confidence of the insiders, and had more outsiders been able to participate we would have moderated that confidence even more.   The price did fall, but not that far, at least for a while.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As usual, project insiders acted very confident of success, and those of us more on the periphery expressed more doubts.  The market price moderated the confidence of the insiders, and had more outsiders been able to participate we would have moderated that confidence even more.   The price did fall, but not that far, at least for a while.</p>
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		<title>By: Hal Finney</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/first_known_bus.html#comment-424434</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal Finney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 01:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/a-1990-corporate-prediction-market.html#comment-424434</guid>
		<description>What do you think about the fact that Xanadu employees put their probability of success as high as 70%? This product is somewhat legendary today for its repeated failures despite its high promise. A number of articles have been written (see http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/3.06/xanadu.html from 1995 for example) analyzing the many obstacles and problems which arose over the years to prevent it from succeeding. With hindsight, 70% seems to be a vast overestimate of any rational estimation of its chances of success.

Do you recall what the price trend was? Was the probability falling as time went on?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What do you think about the fact that Xanadu employees put their probability of success as high as 70%? This product is somewhat legendary today for its repeated failures despite its high promise. A number of articles have been written (see <a href="http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/3.06/xanadu.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/3.06/xanadu.html</a> from 1995 for example) analyzing the many obstacles and problems which arose over the years to prevent it from succeeding. With hindsight, 70% seems to be a vast overestimate of any rational estimation of its chances of success.</p>
<p>Do you recall what the price trend was? Was the probability falling as time went on?</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/first_known_bus.html#comment-424433</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Nov 2006 23:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/a-1990-corporate-prediction-market.html#comment-424433</guid>
		<description>Paul, yes it is theoretically possible that prediction markets do not induce people to reveal enough about their opinions, relative to some other kind of forum.  Michael Abramowicz has tried to invent variations that do better on this issue, but they have not been tested.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, yes it is theoretically possible that prediction markets do not induce people to reveal enough about their opinions, relative to some other kind of forum.  Michael Abramowicz has tried to invent variations that do better on this issue, but they have not been tested.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Gowder</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/first_known_bus.html#comment-424432</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Gowder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Nov 2006 20:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/a-1990-corporate-prediction-market.html#comment-424432</guid>
		<description>Do prediction markets trade learning for accuracy?  Unlike other methods of making predictions that require something at least passing for a reaspned argument, prediction markets are wholly opaque (and indeed, people with knowledge have an incentive to create false arguments to mislead others into betting against them).  Is the trade-off worth it?

Here&#039;s a concrete example.  I tried to engage in a little noise trading on tradesports during the period of uncertainty before Bush announced the Alito nomination.  I ended up losing the (fortunately small) amount of money I put into it when I bet heavily against Alito about 4 hours before the nomination was announced, when he was running very, very high.  My reasoning ran as follows: &quot;There is no public information pointing more to Alito than anyone else, and the price seems too high for people with inside information to be responsible for the whole value.  Therefore there must be some kind of irrationality at work, perhaps one of Cass Sunstein&#039;s cascades.  The price should go down.&quot;  Obviously, this was wrong.  But to this day, I don&#039;t know why.  Maybe people with inside information put a lot more money in the market than I thought.  Maybe a lot of people were a lot better at analyzing the political situation than I.  And if that&#039;s true, I don&#039;t know what information or reasoning they used that I missed.  Maybe a reliable expert made an announcement, supported by a very convincing argument, that I missed.  There&#039;s no way for me to learn how everyone other than me knew it was to be Alito four hours before.

By contrast, if some accurate pundit had made the prediction on the basis of arguments and it had turned out true, I&#039;d have new information about the truth of those arguments, and so would the rest of the society.  By giving that hypothetical accurate pundit a financial incentive to secretly bet on the result instead of argue for the result, the public was deprived of potentially a lot of information.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do prediction markets trade learning for accuracy?  Unlike other methods of making predictions that require something at least passing for a reaspned argument, prediction markets are wholly opaque (and indeed, people with knowledge have an incentive to create false arguments to mislead others into betting against them).  Is the trade-off worth it?</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a concrete example.  I tried to engage in a little noise trading on tradesports during the period of uncertainty before Bush announced the Alito nomination.  I ended up losing the (fortunately small) amount of money I put into it when I bet heavily against Alito about 4 hours before the nomination was announced, when he was running very, very high.  My reasoning ran as follows: &#8220;There is no public information pointing more to Alito than anyone else, and the price seems too high for people with inside information to be responsible for the whole value.  Therefore there must be some kind of irrationality at work, perhaps one of Cass Sunstein&#8217;s cascades.  The price should go down.&#8221;  Obviously, this was wrong.  But to this day, I don&#8217;t know why.  Maybe people with inside information put a lot more money in the market than I thought.  Maybe a lot of people were a lot better at analyzing the political situation than I.  And if that&#8217;s true, I don&#8217;t know what information or reasoning they used that I missed.  Maybe a reliable expert made an announcement, supported by a very convincing argument, that I missed.  There&#8217;s no way for me to learn how everyone other than me knew it was to be Alito four hours before.</p>
<p>By contrast, if some accurate pundit had made the prediction on the basis of arguments and it had turned out true, I&#8217;d have new information about the truth of those arguments, and so would the rest of the society.  By giving that hypothetical accurate pundit a financial incentive to secretly bet on the result instead of argue for the result, the public was deprived of potentially a lot of information.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Edwards</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/first_known_bus.html#comment-424431</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Nov 2006 17:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/a-1990-corporate-prediction-market.html#comment-424431</guid>
		<description>One other thing while I&#039;m thinking of it. While they&#039;re similar and probably related, &quot;accurate&quot; and &quot;free from bias&quot; are conceptually different notions.

For instance, Joe could have a bias in favour of his local sports team. If Joe lives in the Bronx, he could always believe that the Yankees will win the World Series. The fact that he&#039;d be right more often than a fan of any other baseball team doesn&#039;t prove that his process is unbiased.

We need to consider, in other words, both validity and reliability, not just reliability.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One other thing while I&#8217;m thinking of it. While they&#8217;re similar and probably related, &#8220;accurate&#8221; and &#8220;free from bias&#8221; are conceptually different notions.</p>
<p>For instance, Joe could have a bias in favour of his local sports team. If Joe lives in the Bronx, he could always believe that the Yankees will win the World Series. The fact that he&#8217;d be right more often than a fan of any other baseball team doesn&#8217;t prove that his process is unbiased.</p>
<p>We need to consider, in other words, both validity and reliability, not just reliability.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Edwards</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/first_known_bus.html#comment-424430</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Nov 2006 17:25:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/a-1990-corporate-prediction-market.html#comment-424430</guid>
		<description>One thing you can do is use a test and control method. Two ways to do this:

1) Look at two stocks with nearly-identical properties, but with one subject to a test condition (say a &quot;famous&quot; CEO) and one free of that condition. It&#039;s not a perfect test (lots of confounding factors), but if you do it enough times you do get a sense for the tendency of the market to be subject to the specific bias you&#039;re testing. Many of the papers in the site linked above do just that - compare stocks with media attention to those without media attention, for instance, and find the degree to which media attention biases price.

2) Look at populations with specific biases. For instance, you can compare women&#039;s investment behaviour to men&#039;s investment behaviour. To the extent that they behave differently you can imply that the market will be biased towards the way that men view value (since far more men are involved in the market than women). Professor Odean found that women are better investors by a statistically significant margin, suggesting to me that they may be able to exploit the inefficiencies in the overall market caused by male biases swamping female biases in overall market pricing.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing you can do is use a test and control method. Two ways to do this:</p>
<p>1) Look at two stocks with nearly-identical properties, but with one subject to a test condition (say a &#8220;famous&#8221; CEO) and one free of that condition. It&#8217;s not a perfect test (lots of confounding factors), but if you do it enough times you do get a sense for the tendency of the market to be subject to the specific bias you&#8217;re testing. Many of the papers in the site linked above do just that &#8211; compare stocks with media attention to those without media attention, for instance, and find the degree to which media attention biases price.</p>
<p>2) Look at populations with specific biases. For instance, you can compare women&#8217;s investment behaviour to men&#8217;s investment behaviour. To the extent that they behave differently you can imply that the market will be biased towards the way that men view value (since far more men are involved in the market than women). Professor Odean found that women are better investors by a statistically significant margin, suggesting to me that they may be able to exploit the inefficiencies in the overall market caused by male biases swamping female biases in overall market pricing.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Edwards</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/first_known_bus.html#comment-424429</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Nov 2006 16:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/a-1990-corporate-prediction-market.html#comment-424429</guid>
		<description>Thanks Robin, I&#039;ll review the paper.

Nicholas asks a great question about absolute level of error in markets. Unfortunately, Nicholas, the trick is not to compare actual returns versus price, it&#039;s to compare risk-adjusted actual returns versus price.

What you end up finding is that the &#039;rational&#039; risk-adjustment is quite different from the &#039;observed&#039; risk-adjustment. The observed is also possibly nonlinear and difficult to model theoretically (and tax-distorted and all kinds of other garbage), although interesting inroads have been made using Bayesian models.

So you&#039;d get a very different value between market price and PV of returns, but it would be very diffuclt to say how much of that is due to errors in the market&#039;s judgement of risk and how much is due to errors in the market&#039;s judgement of the value of the underlying. And how much is due to non-market shifts such as tax distortion or demographic changes (baby boomers buying growth stocks in the 70s and income stocks in the 00s).

Of course, all those errors have should have distortionary effects on the predictive value of markets - it&#039;s just hard to do the exact analysis you want to do and draw the conclusion you want to draw, I think. Could be wrong, of course.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Robin, I&#8217;ll review the paper.</p>
<p>Nicholas asks a great question about absolute level of error in markets. Unfortunately, Nicholas, the trick is not to compare actual returns versus price, it&#8217;s to compare risk-adjusted actual returns versus price.</p>
<p>What you end up finding is that the &#8216;rational&#8217; risk-adjustment is quite different from the &#8216;observed&#8217; risk-adjustment. The observed is also possibly nonlinear and difficult to model theoretically (and tax-distorted and all kinds of other garbage), although interesting inroads have been made using Bayesian models.</p>
<p>So you&#8217;d get a very different value between market price and PV of returns, but it would be very diffuclt to say how much of that is due to errors in the market&#8217;s judgement of risk and how much is due to errors in the market&#8217;s judgement of the value of the underlying. And how much is due to non-market shifts such as tax distortion or demographic changes (baby boomers buying growth stocks in the 70s and income stocks in the 00s).</p>
<p>Of course, all those errors have should have distortionary effects on the predictive value of markets &#8211; it&#8217;s just hard to do the exact analysis you want to do and draw the conclusion you want to draw, I think. Could be wrong, of course.</p>
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