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	<title>Comments on: The Movie &#8220;Click&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/click_christmas.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Deathbed Regrets, and Other Links &#124; John Goodman's Health Policy Blog &#124; NCPA.org</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/click_christmas.html#comment-460478</link>
		<dc:creator>Deathbed Regrets, and Other Links &#124; John Goodman's Health Policy Blog &#124; NCPA.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Nov 2010 16:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/the-movie-click.html#comment-460478</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;No one on their deathbed ever wished they had spent more time in the office,&#8221; the saying goes. But is the saying correct? Robin Hanson updates us on death bed regrets. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;No one on their deathbed ever wished they had spent more time in the office,&#8221; the saying goes. But is the saying correct? Robin Hanson updates us on death bed regrets. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Overcoming Bias : Deathbed Regret Is Far</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/click_christmas.html#comment-460211</link>
		<dc:creator>Overcoming Bias : Deathbed Regret Is Far</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Nov 2010 00:31:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/the-movie-click.html#comment-460211</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;No one on their deathbed ever wished they had spent more time in the office,&#8221; the saying goes. &#8230; I have my doubts. (more) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;No one on their deathbed ever wished they had spent more time in the office,&#8221; the saying goes. &#8230; I have my doubts. (more) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/click_christmas.html#comment-424500</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 13:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/the-movie-click.html#comment-424500</guid>
		<description>Chris, we can believe B less if A has an interest in the bias he is quoting, as long as the fact of that interest does not make not longer believe the bias exists.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, we can believe B less if A has an interest in the bias he is quoting, as long as the fact of that interest does not make not longer believe the bias exists.</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisA</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/click_christmas.html#comment-424499</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 06:44:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/the-movie-click.html#comment-424499</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s interesting to ask why is this particular deathbed regret (I spent too much time in  the office) is so widely known and quoted, rather than, say, the opposite or any other deathbed regret (I should have played more tennis for instance). I would guess it is because the actual, real bias is so very often in the other direction, i.e. people very frequently tend to have a bias towards spending time in the office rather than with their family (otherwise it would not be quoted so much). As Robin suggests perhaps this meme survives so well because it is useful for the non-working spouse to redress the balance between work and family. It might also be a comfort to people with non interesting jobs.  So, before accepting whether widely described bias are true, perhaps we need to ask whether the person quoting the bias has an interest in it being true. In the drivers example, we should only believe B less if A has no interest in the bias he is quoting.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s interesting to ask why is this particular deathbed regret (I spent too much time in  the office) is so widely known and quoted, rather than, say, the opposite or any other deathbed regret (I should have played more tennis for instance). I would guess it is because the actual, real bias is so very often in the other direction, i.e. people very frequently tend to have a bias towards spending time in the office rather than with their family (otherwise it would not be quoted so much). As Robin suggests perhaps this meme survives so well because it is useful for the non-working spouse to redress the balance between work and family. It might also be a comfort to people with non interesting jobs.  So, before accepting whether widely described bias are true, perhaps we need to ask whether the person quoting the bias has an interest in it being true. In the drivers example, we should only believe B less if A has no interest in the bias he is quoting.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/click_christmas.html#comment-424498</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/the-movie-click.html#comment-424498</guid>
		<description>Chris (pdf23ds), you seem to be saying there is no way to argue effectively for any moral claim, and hence no way to argue that any moral claim is an error, and hence no way to argue that a bias exists, and so we should just not talk about morals at all.  This seems a bit extreme to me.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris (pdf23ds), you seem to be saying there is no way to argue effectively for any moral claim, and hence no way to argue that any moral claim is an error, and hence no way to argue that a bias exists, and so we should just not talk about morals at all.  This seems a bit extreme to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/click_christmas.html#comment-424497</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/the-movie-click.html#comment-424497</guid>
		<description>Guy, there are a great many useful distinctions, and I&#039;ll grant that empirical vs. normative is one of them.  But we should not introduce every distinction into every conversation where it might apply; we should focus on differences we expect to make a difference there.   So I grant that the distinction you highlight would be relevant if we wanted to estimate the kinds of evidence used to support a claim, and how easy it might be to establish the existence of a particular bias.  That all said, how does this difference make a difference here?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guy, there are a great many useful distinctions, and I&#8217;ll grant that empirical vs. normative is one of them.  But we should not introduce every distinction into every conversation where it might apply; we should focus on differences we expect to make a difference there.   So I grant that the distinction you highlight would be relevant if we wanted to estimate the kinds of evidence used to support a claim, and how easy it might be to establish the existence of a particular bias.  That all said, how does this difference make a difference here?</p>
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		<title>By: pdf23ds</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/click_christmas.html#comment-424496</link>
		<dc:creator>pdf23ds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/the-movie-click.html#comment-424496</guid>
		<description>My, wasn&#039;t I unclear. Let me try again:

Well, from the vantage point of a particular moral framework, humans can have biases regarding particular normative claims. But since there&#039;s widespread variance in people&#039;s moral belief systems on normative issues, especially when you consider detailed and complicated issues like work-family balance, there&#039;s little hope of being able to intersubjectively determine bias in claims of that type, since there&#039;s no agreed-upon standard against which to measure bias in them. So Guy&#039;s distinction is relevant and worth consideration.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My, wasn&#8217;t I unclear. Let me try again:</p>
<p>Well, from the vantage point of a particular moral framework, humans can have biases regarding particular normative claims. But since there&#8217;s widespread variance in people&#8217;s moral belief systems on normative issues, especially when you consider detailed and complicated issues like work-family balance, there&#8217;s little hope of being able to intersubjectively determine bias in claims of that type, since there&#8217;s no agreed-upon standard against which to measure bias in them. So Guy&#8217;s distinction is relevant and worth consideration.</p>
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		<title>By: Guy Kahane</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/click_christmas.html#comment-424495</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy Kahane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/the-movie-click.html#comment-424495</guid>
		<description>Robin, I was trying to translate some of your claims to my own conceptual framework, where they do make a genuine difference. I&#039;m very happy to talk about normative error, and this means that there can certainly be normative biases (a primary use of the term &#039;bias&#039; is of course to refer to such cases). But normative and empirical biases would be supported by VERY different kinds of evidence. And the notion of error involved might be very different, and possibly much weaker, on certain accounts of normative, evaluative, and some empirical claims (e.g. historical ones). It&#039;s common to mix these up, and to support a given kind of claim with the wrong kind of relevant evidence. And when a disagreement is at the level of &#039;brute&#039; normative intuitions (&#039;deep human relations are simply more valuable than professional achievement&#039;), it will often be extremely hard to impossible to establish that one side is suffering from a bias.

To focus on this particular example, thinking about it from a normative perspective raises, I think, very different questions from questions about the statistics of regret. For instance, our relation to our family involves special moral duties and concerns. And whether it was acceptable (or worthwhile) to neglect these duties/concerns for the sake of professional success may depend on whether one is, in fact, ultimately successful, and in what way (this question being the immediate topic of Bernard Williams&#039;s &#039;Moral Luck&#039;).

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin, I was trying to translate some of your claims to my own conceptual framework, where they do make a genuine difference. I&#8217;m very happy to talk about normative error, and this means that there can certainly be normative biases (a primary use of the term &#8216;bias&#8217; is of course to refer to such cases). But normative and empirical biases would be supported by VERY different kinds of evidence. And the notion of error involved might be very different, and possibly much weaker, on certain accounts of normative, evaluative, and some empirical claims (e.g. historical ones). It&#8217;s common to mix these up, and to support a given kind of claim with the wrong kind of relevant evidence. And when a disagreement is at the level of &#8216;brute&#8217; normative intuitions (&#8216;deep human relations are simply more valuable than professional achievement&#8217;), it will often be extremely hard to impossible to establish that one side is suffering from a bias.</p>
<p>To focus on this particular example, thinking about it from a normative perspective raises, I think, very different questions from questions about the statistics of regret. For instance, our relation to our family involves special moral duties and concerns. And whether it was acceptable (or worthwhile) to neglect these duties/concerns for the sake of professional success may depend on whether one is, in fact, ultimately successful, and in what way (this question being the immediate topic of Bernard Williams&#8217;s &#8216;Moral Luck&#8217;).</p>
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		<title>By: pdf23ds</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/click_christmas.html#comment-424494</link>
		<dc:creator>pdf23ds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:10:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/the-movie-click.html#comment-424494</guid>
		<description>&quot;But all of these kinds of claims can be in error, and so there can be biases about them.&quot;

Well, from the vantage of a particular moral framework, normative claims can be biased. But since there&#039;s widespread variance in people&#039;s moral belief systems on normative issues involving work-family balance, there&#039;s little hope of being able to intersubjectively determine bias in normative claims, since there&#039;s no agreed-upon standard against which to measure bias in normative claims.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But all of these kinds of claims can be in error, and so there can be biases about them.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, from the vantage of a particular moral framework, normative claims can be biased. But since there&#8217;s widespread variance in people&#8217;s moral belief systems on normative issues involving work-family balance, there&#8217;s little hope of being able to intersubjectively determine bias in normative claims, since there&#8217;s no agreed-upon standard against which to measure bias in normative claims.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/click_christmas.html#comment-424493</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:34:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2006/11/the-movie-click.html#comment-424493</guid>
		<description>Guy, yes, people with strong family ties are happier, but so are people with successful careers; the question is where to put more effort on the margin.  And of course some people might care more about success beyond its contribution to happiness, and so be reasonably willing to sacrifice some happiness for more success.

I&#039;m not clear why you look to draw our attention to whether these are &quot;empirical,&quot; &quot;objective,&quot; or &quot;normative&quot; claims.  Yes it is harder to find support (evidence or analysis) regarding some kinds of claims, and various particular evidence support some claims more than others.  But all of these kinds of claims can be in error, and so there can be biases about them.  Bias is just avoidable systematic error.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guy, yes, people with strong family ties are happier, but so are people with successful careers; the question is where to put more effort on the margin.  And of course some people might care more about success beyond its contribution to happiness, and so be reasonably willing to sacrifice some happiness for more success.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not clear why you look to draw our attention to whether these are &#8220;empirical,&#8221; &#8220;objective,&#8221; or &#8220;normative&#8221; claims.  Yes it is harder to find support (evidence or analysis) regarding some kinds of claims, and various particular evidence support some claims more than others.  But all of these kinds of claims can be in error, and so there can be biases about them.  Bias is just avoidable systematic error.</p>
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